Try This...Explain This? (Tuner)

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 13 Apr 2010 2:07 am

With nothing better to do I was fooling around with My Peterson tuner today.
You do not have to have a Peteron to do this but I find the accuracy of stopping the strobe rolling does help.
Anyway, tune Your guitar to Your preferred setting,
for ease of explanation We'll talk about strings four thru' eight.When all is in tune at the open position,put Your bar at fret twelve and pick strings four and eight and adjust the position of the bar until the tuner shows that both E notes are at correct pitch,this proves that Your bar is being held parralell.Now check Your other strings,I have found that several are not"bang on"???
I cannot hear the difference and I am not duly worried about it I am curious and as I said I have nothing better to do.
Another thing I notice is the pitch of any string is altered quite a lot by moving the bar fractionally.
We argue and enthuse about how to tune to (almost)perfection and then when We place the bar at any fret other than zero We kid ourselves We can place the bar within 0.001" of the correct position.
Thanks for letting Me ramble a bit.
Bast regards and tuning to All.
Billy

Paul E. Brennan · Post by **Paul E. Brennan** » 13 Apr 2010 2:43 am

We argue and enthuse about how to tune to (almost)perfection and then when We place the bar at any fret other than zero We kid ourselves We can place the bar within 0.001" of the correct position.

I await the answers with interest. Have you repeated this experiment on different steels? The same steel with different strings?

Jason Hull · Post by **Jason Hull** » 13 Apr 2010 3:32 am

Intonation can't be adjusted on a PSG, as it can be on a lap steel, due to the design of the changer. No amount of "tuning" is going to change that fact. There's a lot of talk on the Forum about tuning a PSG, but most don't realize that "close enough" is as good as it's ever gonna get. Non-adjustable intonation, combined with equal temperament, make it impossible to get a PSG perfectly in tune. We manage to make to make music on them, nonetheless, so use your ears and be happy with good enough!

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 13 Apr 2010 3:54 am

Thanks for the answer Jason.You make a lot of sense.when I come to think of it, that is why six string guitars have adjustable string length.
Would an adjustable changer be an advancement?Perhaps it would be too costly to design and for such little benefit.
Paul,Funny You should mention string gauge,I recall a few year ago I had a situation where My eigth string was on pitch at the open position and on fret twelve it was (audibly)out.I had'nt noticed I had inadvertantly put a different gauge string on.
Billy

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 13 Apr 2010 3:55 am

When you are holding the bar at the 12th fret so that the 2 E stings are in tune it does NOT prove that the bar is parallel because if you place the bar exactly over the 12th fret marker both Es will be very slightly sharp, one more so than the other. (note I am only talking a few cents here) Try it with the 2 B strings. The effect is even more pronounced. Jason said - there is no provision for compensation on a PSG. When you push down on the strings with the bar you make the string longer or bend it which makes it go sharp just like on any stringed instrument. A small amount to be sure but sharp is sharp and if you go looking for this affect with a Peteresen tuner you will find it.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Apr 2010 5:10 am

Billy,

Forget about the tuner and the open and 12th fret test....use the 3rd to the 15th fret to check strings for intonation accuracy....There are less over tones at those positions.....If the strings do not line up, to your ears desire, at the 15th fret with the 3rd fret its a defective string......I check my strings for intonation problems each time I change them and replace all strings that do not please my ears....Its usually the wound strings that are problematic.....Unless they are changed its a problem. This is not a common problem but it does happen.

To check a strings intonation, By ear only, I tune these combinations to perfect intervals (No Beats)..... No pedals....I line the bar up visually at each fret and check the 7th with the 5th string and the same with the 8th string with the 5th string. If they sound correct to my preferences, I move on and check the 10th with the 8th string.....I then tune the 9th to the 7th and usually I find no problems.....But occasionally I do.....Those strings are gone with the snap of the cutter.

Gary,
Defective strings tend to be flat at the octave which is not the same issue as the bar pressure intonation.

Billy...I've had great luck with Jagwire strings. D'addario's are pretty consistant as well. I prefer the tone of the Jagwire strings.

Paul

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 13 Apr 2010 6:11 am

Billy Murdoch wrote: We argue and enthuse about how to tune to (almost)perfection and then when We place the bar at any fret other than zero We kid ourselves We can place the bar within 0.001" of the correct position.

I'm absolutely not qualified to post anything following Mr. Franklin, but I've often wondered about Billy's theory. We do obsess about tuning to absolute perfection, then we play a with a round bar and even though we try to line up the bar visually and sonically. How can we expect to maintain perfect intonation throughout. Maybe that's what tempered tunings are meant to compensate for???

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 13 Apr 2010 6:14 am

Paul,
Thank You very much for sharing Your knowledge once again.
It is very much appreciated.
Best regards
Billy

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 13 Apr 2010 7:01 am

It really is wonderful when Paul chimes in. These is no substitute for his level of experience and insight. I think that there simply is no such thing as perfect intonation. There are just to many variables and the best any of us can hope for in the end is for what we play to sound good. Still, the goal of any manufacturer of musical instruments should be, in my view, to produce them with a level of accuracy that that makes the inevitable intonation problems as inaudible as possible. The question of whether or not a PSG could benefit from a "compensatable" bridge and/or nut end is not one well received in general and lets face it - you dont truly need this. Still, for me at least, the question remains and I have had a dream of building such a guitar as a test bed for intonation issues for some time but I have never found the time or the money. Perhaps someday!

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 13 Apr 2010 10:51 am

I think that string vibration is a real factor with tuning. Or, how you pick the string when tuning compared to how you pick when playing. And, there is more string vibration with open strings compared to barred ones, especially with the lower pitched strings.

I was touring in the south last month with a band and had the darndest time with certain strings coming back sharp on me. It made for a couple rough nights. I knew that a couple of my strings were drifting about 3,4 cents and there was nothing I could do at the time. I learned a thing about trying to stay in a good mood when your guitar won't stay in tune. If you stay positive and focus on the music, your ears and hands will correct most problems.

ps, Cheers to PF, I don't think I'm alone in saying that I've learned a great deal from his posts on the forum. Thanks man!

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 13 Apr 2010 1:30 pm

Once strings, pedals and levers are tuned open, they'll sound fine if you always play in open position. If it were only this easy, everyone would be playing PSG. Once the tonebar is introduced into the equation, all bets are off on the precision of tuning. The "tuning" is really your ears compensation of where the bar is placed to achieve an optimal compromise for the given fret position and pedal/lever combinations. So according to my personal tenet: Tone is in the right hand and Pitch is in the left hand.

Clete

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 13 Apr 2010 2:12 pm

Gary C,,,
Ya got me thinkin', and that's not always a good idea!
Okay,,, at the roller nut we have gauged rollers to keep the tops of the strings on the same level plane. But at the changer, the fingers aren't gauged for the strings, nor are they intonated. So,,, that might cause a problem as one plays higher on the neck. ??? So what would you do? Have each finger gauged to it's string by having different radii on each finger. I guess you'd have to machine the holes for the changer axle at different points, not the dead center of the radii, to achieve the desired results of having all the strings at the changer in the same level plane, and intonated at the same time.
Would that work? I'm getting a headache! Where's my duct tape?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 13 Apr 2010 2:54 pm

John, a lot of steels don't have gauged rollers. I don't think any of mine do: Sho-Buds, various vintages (I know they don't), GFI, Williams 400 Series, pre-RP Mullen.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 13 Apr 2010 3:19 pm

Yeah Brint, I know! I have four old Buds. But I think they started gauging them in the Sixties. My '67 has gauged rollers, and they're pretty much standard operating equipment these days.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 13 Apr 2010 3:52 pm

Now that I think about it,,, I don't think different radii would be necessary. Just manipulating where the hole for the changer axle is located would probably do the trick.

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 13 Apr 2010 5:07 pm

John these are good questions I guess. Actually I was thinking along the lines of a changer design that does not use "cam" or radial motion like a traditional design. Either individual roller/bridge pieces with a changer similar to the Fender PS210 or linear motion (straight pull) something like Lamar is using.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 14 Apr 2010 12:39 pm

Billy, you made a very interesting point in this post. I have often wandered how some people can put so much pressure on the bar, you see the strings bending, bar at an angle and not even dead on the fret and sound so in tune while others can be dead on the fret, little bar pressure and be or sound out of tune.
I think a perfect in tune steel guitar is a figment of someones imagination and there is no such thing. It's as someone said above, it's all in the ears and hands of the player.
I do a little studio work here and there and at times have trouble with being in tune. It's not off enough for just the average preson to hear but it drives me nuts. I envy people like Paul and an abundance of other players that always sound so dead on. Face it, .002 of an inch will change the pitch so how can I get my bar that close to tolerance.

Barry Hyman · Post by **Barry Hyman** » 14 Apr 2010 5:52 pm

What John Billings is proposing is interesting. But the manufacturer could only adjust string length at the changer if all the owners of that model steel always used the same guage strings. A changer that was adjustable by the owner would solve that problem except most people don't know how to adjust string length for intonation, and, more importantly, the mechanical obstacles involved with adjustable length on a moving changer would be overwhelming.

In general, the thicker the string, the longer it must be to intonate correctly, but the details are different for wound and unwound strings.

As for bar intonation, you use your eyes to get it close and then you use your ears to get it right. Then you pray, if you're a good person, or you buy another beer if you're a bad guy like me...

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 17 Apr 2010 10:10 am

I'm not much at playing, but I too have found Jag wires to be excellent strings

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 17 Apr 2010 12:08 pm

Barry,
"all the owners of that model steel always used the same guage strings."

Yup! That would be a "given." Maybe even have to be the same brand of strings, with the same sized core and winding. The thing is, that way you could still have all the strings on one axle, one pivot point. Otherwise, things would get really complicated I'd think! What I'm suggesting would be pretty easy to do.

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Try This...Explain This? (Tuner)

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