Upstage vs. Downstage Clarification.

[Herb Steiner]

Another thread here is a somewhat obtuse and convoluted discussion about steel players being "upstaged" by front musicians. There was a bit of confusion, or misstatement by one poster that deserves clarification.

In theatrical terms "upstage" is towards the rear of the stage, and "downstage" is towards the front, nearest to the audience. When Performer A "upstages" Performer B, this means A gets in front of B, closer to the audience. It's considered a breach of theatrical etiquette, especially when Performer B has higher billing than Performer A.

Trivia Sidebar: In early theatre, stages were sloped downward from the back, so the front was slightly lower. This allowed audiences to better see the performers working the rear of the stage, hence the use of the "upstage" term.

[Cal Sharp]

Hmm, haven't read the other thread. I trust I haven't missed anything important.
I always set up as far back as I can get, so I guess I'm upstage. Never realized that.

[Ben Jones]

"In theatrical terms "upstage" is towards the rear of the stage, and "downstage" is towards the front, nearest to the audience. When Performer A "upstages" Performer B, this means A gets in front of B, closer to the audience. It's considered a breach of theatrical etiquette, especially when Performer A has higher billing than Performer B. "

thanks Herb, I did not know that and had assumed the opposite...that upstage would be toward the front. I knew upstaging someone was dependent on there being a "victim" to upstage but I dindt realize it was so literal. That you were literally pushing the victim "upstage" by stepping in front of them or otherwise hogging the spotlight. Mr Hankeys thread makes ooddles more sense now...kinda...maybe.

my avatar pic shows steel up front (downstage) right by singer, but then Im not a prominent steel guitarist... or even a capable one.

[Ransom Beers]

Hello Herb,how did the gig in Seguin go?As I remember the acoustics in that hall leave a lot to be desired.

[Bill Hankey]

Herb,

I can't tell you how refreshing it is to read the beneficent kindness on your part. I'm delighted to have a chance to observe your wisdom.

[Bari Smith]

My understanding of the considerations for the angled stage besides the view from the audience,was that in early theatrical performances,quite a few live animals were used and the slope made it easier to clean up"mishaps"!!!!Wash em away!I was told that by a gentleman that had spent many many years in the theatre!

[Herb Steiner]

Ransom
The gig in Seguin went quite well. The crowd was large and, even considering it was the band's first night there, we made really good bucks (door gig). Of course, Tom and the band aren't strangers in Seguin, but we did play locally the night before as a favor to another local band that had been double-booked, so I was concerned that would hurt our crowd on Saturday. Not to worry, we had a great attendance.

Forumites Ray Minich and Robert Pittman came out and a fine time was had by all.

[Brint Hannay]

In theatrical terms "upstage" is towards the rear of the stage, and "downstage" is towards the front, nearest to the audience. When Performer A "upstages" Performer B, this means A gets in front of B, closer to the audience.

With all due respect, Herb, I think this was a misstatement.

While it is correct that "upstage" means toward the rear of the stage, farther from the audience, when performer A "upstages" performer B, it means not that performer A "gets in front of" performer B, but rather that performer A remains upstage, i.e. behind performer B, toward the rear of the stage, forcing performer B to turn away from the audience.

From my trusty Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition:

upstage vt (1921) 1: to draw attention away from 2: to force (an actor) to face away from the audience by staying upstage 3: to treat snobbishly

[Bob Hoffnar]

I did a couple tours in the UK playing old refurbed theaters. The angle of the stage is significant and made setting up a pedalsteel kinda tricky sometimes. I always like bumping into the literal origins of phrases. "Upstage" is actually up.

[Murnel Babineaux]

Isn't Hankey correct in stating that Pedal Steel Guitarists deliberately get put "upstage"?



Murnel

[Brint Hannay]

Isn't Hankey correct in stating that Pedal Steel Guitarists deliberately get put "upstage"?



Murnel

Yes (actually, the more consistent thing is that the steel player is put off to the side of the stage), but they are put "upstage" (or side stage) with the expectation that they will not "upstage" the singer! (see above) The general audience's interest in the singer and/or the singing far exceeds their interest in any instrumentalist and/or their playing. Is this news to anyone? Bill's concept of the singer "upstaging" the steel player is backwards both literally and conceptually.

[Bill Hankey]

Brint,

"The general audience" attending a concert filled to capacity, consists of a following in great numbers, of those who are not interested in all singers, but rather the supporting musicians. Many of my friends will refer to a band's steel player without mentioning the band's vocalization. I immediately turn my attention to how well the singers contribute, in bringing out the best in the accompanying musicians, who are equally as important as the vocalization. I'm an instrumentalist, having the capability of playing for hours without vocals. Vocalization in my point of view, is an absolute luxury. Have you ever researched Ralph Mooney's handling of overzealous singers? He was always there with a wide range of steel guitar "statements", or so to speak. Who would be tempted to warn Ralph not to overplay? Critics know when to move in, I've noticed.

[Ransom Beers]

Herb,thats great.Seguin is a good place to play & has a lot of local talent.I met & played with a bunch of them while I lived around in that area.Used to go to Big Johns Hangin' Tree Saloon inBracken Tx. on Sunday nights & jam with Matt Tune,Denny Mathis,Billy Thrush, Byron Zipp,many others,Jammed with Justin Trevino several times,used to take Bart to the gigs when he played for Justin.Lots of good memories.

[Chris Schlotzhauer]

Wow. So it takes a convoluted thread to draw in a convoluted response from the troll?

[Bill McCloskey]

As an old theatre major I can tell you Brint is correct. Being upstaged means that a performer is doing "business" to draw attention to themselves BEHIND the performer downstage that is causing the audience to react unbeknown to the person downstage who is supposedly the center of attention.

An actor moves downstage and is the focus of the audience's attention while he/she delivers their big line. The person upstage muggs to the audience causing the attention to shift to them (behind the main actor) and since the actor can't see it because it is happening behind him, he has been upstaged.

[Ben Jones]

I dont know why exactly ..but this is fascinating!

[Ransom Beers]

Wow. So it takes a convoluted thread to draw in a convoluted response from the troll?




I hope that comment wasn't directed at me,if so I do apologize.I'm new here & as I didn't see or hear the stage manager I thought it was ok to post to a fellow forumite,sorry I will bow out gracefully & not step on any egos,sorry.

[Dave Mudgett]

Ransom, I don't think anybody is referring to you.

First, I agree with Brint H. and Bill M.'s conception of the idea of 'upstaging', which is for a supporting character upstage to do something - generally unscripted - to draw attention away from the 'main' character 'downstage'. I think the analogy to a music production is pretty strong.

But I disagree slightly with the concept that the singer is always the main object of attention in a musical show. Admittedly, this is true for most classic country music and lots of popular music in general, but it is not universal. Of course, when the singer is, let's say, someone of the caliber of George Jones, Tony Bennett, or some other true great in a particular style, there is a strong musical reason why they should be in focus most of the time.

However, not all music - even popular music - is focused exclusively or even primarily on the singer. One reason is musical - do you really think that most people in the audience went to see guitarists like Roy Buchanan or Danny Gatton primarily to see, their singers? This is no slight to their singers at all - I'm a fan - but some instrumentalists demand attention on their own, regardless of the presence of a singer. To me, smart singers/bandleaders like Ernest Tubb, Ray Price, and Emmylou Harris were secure enough in themselves to hire and feature great instrumental players, which I think figured prominently in their success.

But to me, operationally, this comes down to the question, "Who has the power to control the focus of a show?". Of course, this is complex and relies on a great many things - for example, tradition in that style of music, drawing power of particular singers or musicians, who controls the purse strings for the production, and so on.

Add to that the fact that some styles of music have a very different ethos on the relative importance of singing vs. instrumental playing. Even back to the big-band days and earlier, jazz was a heavily instrumental music, even if it had one or more 'featured' singers. Pretty clearly, modern mainstream jazz is even much more instrumental-oriented.

I have, many times, seen singers deliberately 'upstage' soloists by doing ridiculous mugging and screaming during the middle of a sensitive solo that was obviously the solist's 'shine time', much the way another instrumentalist can stomp on a soloist. It works both ways. I'm not sure if this was Bill H.'s point, but I think that is something to consider.

My opinions, of course.

[Ransom Beers]

I agree with you but the production manager I would think is the one that dictates the set up of the stage & or the star themselves.You'll agree with me that there a lot of prima-donna's in the music industry,egos abound be it star of sideman.It is a bit of a sticky wicket to avoid bruised egos & such.I have some stories to tell on the subject but will decline to repeat them here as ,well is's not good protocol to do so.

[Dave Mudgett]

If there is a production manager, the question would be, "For whom does the production manager work?". It's about power, and my sense is that "Who has the power?" can vary a lot, depending on the situation. I guess that was my main point.

[Brint Hannay]

Certainly, it depends on the nature of the musical performance what the audience's focus tends to be. People didn't, as Dave says, go to a Roy Buchanan show to hear vocals, even if there was some singing. But Roy's name was on the marquee. I was under the impression Bill H.'s original topic concerned typical country performances, with the singer as the name of the act. He refers to his acquaintances focusing on the instrumental part of the performance, as I generally do myself, but I'll wager those acquaintances are musicians or "dedicated" music aficionados, and not representative of the majority of people attending, say, a George Strait concert. And I'd guess that, hard as it is to fathom, more of those who attended Ernest Tubb's shows came away saying "I saw Ernest Tubb last Saturday--he was great" than saying "I saw Leon Rhodes and Buddy Charleton with ET last week--great show", as I would have done. (I'm not knocking ET--I like him.)

[Dave Mudgett]

Sure, Brint - I already agreed that traditional country music and many other popular styles have tended to focus on the singer.

But I'll bet that for a lot of people going to see, let's say, ET or Emmylou in their heyday, a big part of the show was the hot bands they had. To me, a lot of the really great country performers got great instrumentalists and featured them prominently. In this case, they had the power, but used it wisely and (IMO) to their great benefit.

I think there is a sense, true or not, that many (but not all - we all know plenty of exceptions like Vince Gill and Marty Stuart, for example) well known 'music stars' these days appear to treat backup musicians as replaceable cogs in their machine. Maybe this isn't correct, but to some extent, I think perception = reality, and that's the way mainstream music often appears to me, at least.

[Ransom Beers]

When I attend a George Strait concert I go not only to see Geo. but also Mike Daly,Ron Huckabee as I am but not closely acquainted with both.Mike has a very good personality as does Ronnie.Never met George tho.