change to minor

[Bob Ripperden]

hi all, just bought a Charter Starter and I was wanting to know if changing the RKR from lowering the #2 string 1/2 step to make a 7th to lowering the #6 string 1/2 step to make a minor in the root possition would be a mistake? Is the 7th on string #2 use a lot? What do you think?
Bob

[b0b]

Yes, it would be a mistake. There are minor chords all over the place on the E9th. You need the 2nd string lower for a scale tone in the "pedals down" positions.

[Roger Rettig]

Bob - a simple formula for finding a minor chord is to first find the major (say, C on the 3rd fret, pedals down) then slide up the neck three frets - there's the minor (in the case of the C, it becomes C minor at the 6th fret).

As b0b says, there are minors everywhere on E9, just as there are on any stringed instrument. It'll help you to learn the basic theory about majors and their relative minors, too (C major = A minor, and they're both at the third fret with pedals down - just a slightly different string grip).

[Don Brown, Sr.]

The two Chromatic strings, are the most important part of playing the E9 tuning.

I'm thinking some of the new/er players aren't giving them enough thought.

[Rick Winfield]

Pedals down (AB) move up 1 fret, release pedals, use lever to lower E>Eb. There's your minor

i.e

3rd fret AB ped = C
4th fret NO Peds, E>Eb lever = C minor (Eb6)

also: 3rd fret 1/2 A +B ped = C minor
Rick

[Bobby Snell]

Strings 5, 2 &1 are a B major, lower string 2 1/2 step it becomes B minor.

[Brint Hannay]

Bob - a simple formula for finding a minor chord is to first find the major (say, C on the 3rd fret, pedals down) then slide up the neck three frets - there's the minor (in the case of the C, it becomes C minor at the 6th fret).

As b0b says, there are minors everywhere on E9, just as there are on any stringed instrument. It'll help you to learn the basic theory about majors and their relative minors, too (C major = A minor, and they're both at the third fret with pedals down - just a slightly different string grip).

The "slightly different string grip" is critical for both of these examples, though; The C minor at the 6th fret and the A minor at the 3rd fret require the playing of string 7 or 1, instead of string 8 or 4 (Adding string 8 or 4 to the minor makes a minor 7th chord.) You can't just slide the 3rd fret C major up three frets and have a minor--that just gives Eb major.

[Paul Sutherland]

I have both the 2nd string and 6th string 1/2 step lowers. I use the 2nd string lower much more than the 6th string lower. I only occasionally use the 2nd string lower to get the flat seventh tone in the pedals up position. I tend to use the 2nd string lower far more often to get the fourth scale tone interval in the pedals down position.

Now for an alternative: I actually have both those changes on the same knee lever, and I find it works pretty well. Occasionally there is a bit of conflict, because I have to avoid the sixth string when the second string is lowered. I've learned to live with it.

If I couldn't have both changes on one knee lever I would definitely drop the sixth string lower, and keep the second string lower.

Experimenting is good, but be sure you can put it back the way it was, if need be. Good luck.

[Roger Rettig]

Brint said:

"You can't just slide the 3rd fret C major up three frets and have a minor--that just gives Eb major."

Yes - or Cm7, and that, surely, is the point?

I was attempting to outline a simple musical principal here for his general guidance, not to tab out minor chords. Bob is a complete beginner, so it's my hope that advising him to look for C minor at the sixth fret rather than wondering how to flatten his '3rd' note at fret three will set him on the right path.

Isn't there some old adage about giving a man a fish or a fishing rod? Flattening his pedals-down major chord with yet another 'pull' is a bit like just giving him the fish, and not as sound a principal as him learning chord relationships.

[J Fletcher]

FYIW here are some minors that I use.
No pedals, 9,7,5 or 10,9,7. A pedal, 10,8,6 or 8,6,5. A and B pedals down, strings 7,6,5 or 10,7,6.
Also use the E's lowered minor quite often. I stumble across others now and then too.
The minor with the root on the 10th string is cool, because it gives the lowest available root...Jerry

[Brett Lanier]

I like having a minor chord at the zero fret position, but would never give up the second string lower for it. IMO it is almost necessary, it ties the minor chords together going up the neck on the same group of strings. If you're playing minor in the + 3 position with A pedal you can slide down for the lower inversion (or up one from the lowered E's minor).

I used to have a feel stop for this change on the 6th string, but found that it was easier to be consistantly in tune using the 6th string whole tone lower/ B pedal split.

All the Carter starters I've tried had LKR(or RKL) lowering strings 5 and 10 one half step, which is LKV on most setups, and didn't have the 6th string whole tone drop at all. If you don't plan on investing in a different guitar you might consider adding a LKV lever.

[Brint Hannay]

Roger, I was drawing the distinction between a minor chord and a minor seventh chord. The seventh is not always desirable, depending on context. And even if one does want the seventh, Eb major only implies Cm7, if someone else is playing the C root.

[Roger Rettig]

Well, of course you were, and I understood that immediately.

However - Eb major 7th has nothing to do with this discussion. If we move our C major (3rd fret, pedals down, strings 4,5,6) up from the 3rd fret to the sixth then we have Eb major - add the 7th string and we have what could either be called C minor 7th or Eb6th.

Ebmaj7th at fret 6? We could release the B pedal, but it suggests G minor, not Cm7.

I can sympathise with Mr Ripperden - when I first got to grips with a pedal-steel I seemed to be swamped in very major-sounding voicings, and I could have used some lateral thinking to help me understand how the relative major/relative minor relationship clarifies it all. In that context, C major equals A minor - or very nearly - and my ears eventually taught me to avoid the A note unless I wanted C6, and to stress it if I wanted A minor.

For some reason I've failed to convey the spirit of what I was suggesting. My first post seems perfectly clear to me, but apparently it isn't. I shall respectfully withdraw from the topic in the hope that I haven't confused Bob while attempting to help him...

[Brint Hannay]

Roger,please note that I edited my post to change Ebmaj7, which I had mistakenly typed, to Eb major, probably while you were typing.

I guess what seems clear depends on one's point of view. All I was trying to say was that your wording, taken literally, without elaboration, said that moving the C major triad up three frets gave a C minor triad, which is of course not the case.

Sorry to quibble at length!

[Roger Rettig]

All right - this is my last word...

One last quibble, and now I'm labouring my point, I know, but an Eb major against a C in the bass won't cause any problems on the bandstand (or in Bob's practice room!) if the song needs a C minor at that point.

Okay - now the old Windbag's going to do some practice himself, you'll all be glad to hear!

[Brint Hannay]

To get back to the topic at hand, I agree with those who say that the 2nd string D lower is more important than the G lower you're considering, but if the Carter Starter has four knee levers, I personally consider the G lower a change that's well worth considering for lever number four. I'm assuming there are 1) F raises, 2) D# lowers, 3) 2nd and 9th string lowers. That fourth lever is the "wild card", and there are several different changes that a lot of people choose to put there. To my mind, having a minor at the "no pedals" position IS a valuable change.

[b0b]

It's not easy to change the copedent on the Carter Starter. It's not designed for that. The 4th knee lever lowers the middle B string half a step - a very useful change.

[Roger Rettig]

Whatd'ya mean 'to get back to the topic...'????? My posts weren't on-topic?

I agree with b0b - B-Bb is a very useful 'pull'; some might say 'fourth most important', but I'd say second or third. Given that there are any number of ways to find minor chords, I can't agree with a G#-G pull being one of anyone's first four.

[Bob Ripperden]

hi B0B, the #4 KL lowers my #2 string D# to D my #3 KL lowers the middle B It was the #5 string that I was trying to lower, but from all the good info from the great guys on the forum, I don't think I'm going to change what is there.
Thanks to all.
Bob

[b0b]

Bob, the physical knee levers aren't typically numbered. They are named as follows:

LKL - Left Knee moving Left
LKR - Left Knee moving Right
RKL - Right Knee moving Left
RKR - Right Knee moving Right

The knee lever changes also have names, and they can be applied to different physical levers on different guitars. On a Carter Starter, that mapping is:

LKL = F lever (raise E strings to F)
LKR = E lever (lower E strings to D#)
RKL = X lever (lower B to A#)
RKR = D lever (lower D# to D)

Some instructors (notably Jeff Newman) swap the names of the D and E levers in their tab, but the intent is clear from which string is being played.

FWIW, I felt strongly that the E and X lever positions should have been swapped on the Carter Starter (X on LKR, E on RKL), but John Fabian who designed the guitar did not agree.

[Bob Ripperden]

Thanks again B0b for sitting me straight. There are alot of things I need to know about this very cool instrument. Love the sounds, and hope I can play it in time.
Bob

[Brint Hannay]

Whatd'ya mean 'to get back to the topic...'????? My posts weren't on-topic?

This being the topic's establishing post:

hi all, just bought a Charter Starter and I was wanting to know if changing the RKR from lowering the #2 string 1/2 step to make a 7th to lowering the #6 string 1/2 step to make a minor in the root possition would be a mistake? Is the 7th on string #2 use a lot? What do you think?
Bob

the topic was about changing from 2nd string lower to 6th string lower, or not. Not "Where are minors found on E9th" or "Which string/pedal/lever configuration gives the best/truest minor chord". So I feel the exchange between you and me was off-topic--both of us.

[Clete Ritta]

Bob,

I am a new steeler who, like yourself, started on a Carter Starter.
At first, there was a ton to learn. Fortunately, there's always a ton of stuff to learn on PSG at any level. I'm sure plenty of pros can chime in on that.

Carter has been a major player in the PSG arena for a long time, and it deeply saddens me that they are closed. If it weren't for the Starter, I may have never even thought about taking it up at this late stage in my musical career.

Needless to say, the Starter has been instrumental in creating new players, due to its affordability and features. The folks at Carter have been building high quality steels at the professional level for years, and took that knowledge to design an inexpensive model with as many pedals and levers as possible while keeping it under $1000. They put a lot of thought into what changes to utilize. IMO its got all the important changes for a beginner to master. I am also glad that it is not easy to rerod or modify. For over two years I learned on it, I never thought of what it didnt have, but how to use what it did have.
Like others have posted, theres plenty of minor action on a Starter setup.
Leave the changes as is. You can sell it down the road for a PSG with more changes in time.

Clete