After having played steel for about 15 years and having played E9 only, this question concerns knee levers. I now play LKL raises the E's and LKR lowers the E's.
I Just got Jeff Newman's Universal Course and it shows the Standard set up copedient as:
LKL raises the E's to F (strings 4 and 8 only)
LKV lowers 5th string B to Bb
RKL lowers 2d string D# to D and raises 9th string B to D
RKR lowers E's to Eb (strings 4 and 8 only)
There is no mention of LKR (where I now lower my E's) I wonder why? Could it be because you have to hold it in all the time you are playing?
Does it really make any difference which knee is used to lower the E's? I'm thinking that it would be really strange to put it in a different place after playing it on the left for so long.
But, by the same token if it is really essential to have it on the RKR then I need to put it there and get used to it being there.
In getting ready to re-rod the U12 it has 7 pedals and 5 knees, I just want to make sure I can play it when I am done.
Any other helpful hints will be greatly appreciated.
b0b is correct
Jeff had very short legs and couldn't reach the last few pedals if an LKR was in the way. Most U12 players I know have as many levers as they can. I have two LKRs and can reach up to P8, but my legs are relatively long. This entirely depends on your body type.
If you can combine all the pedals and levers you need to there is no problem.
Assuming you play Emmons style copedant I would suggest you try leaving the knees where you are used to them. Especially if you might play a D-10 or S-10 again. Where would you find a D-10 or S-10 with a RKR that lowers the E's except perhaps a Day set up. Jeff was a wonderful player and teacher, pilot, great guy but I never dug his RKR E-Eb thing.
I have a D-10 set up at the club where I play and will continue to use it as well. Guess I'll look around and find me a set up that will work. By the way, I play an Emmons style set up.
Wasn't Jeff a "Day" player. That would explian 1 reason he lowered his E's on his right leg. There's no way he could hold in LKL and play all the pedals.
If I played E9/B6 uni, I would definitely have the E lowers on the right knee. As much time as you hold that lever in for the 6th side of the tuning, I couldn't see it being on the left knee as it would be difficult to hold it in while your foot dances across 7 or 8 pedals. LKR would be easier than LKL though.
Carter D10 8p/7k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup, Regal RD40 Dobro (D tuning), Recording King Professional Dobro (G tuning), NV400, NV112, Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open G slide and regular G tuning guitar) .
Richard Sinkler wrote:
If I played E9/B6 uni, I would definitely have the E lowers on the right knee. As much time as you hold that lever in for the 6th side of the tuning, I couldn't see it being on the left knee as it would be difficult to hold it in while your foot dances across 7 or 8 pedals. LKR would be easier than LKL though.
Richard is correct for me, I lower Es with RKL so I can move over to the 6th pedals.
My LKR folds up and can stay up out of the way on my Carter. And I believe Jeff Neumann advised and used his RKR to lower his Es.
It works better to lower Es on the R side leavers for me and have the middle space open.
I have went to hit the LKR and just about fell out of my Chair
Jeff addresses this subject in his other Universal course which is an introduction to universal style guitars and is not a playing instruction course.
This is very good one for people considering Uni. in which he explains the how and why on the setting up of your Universal guitar.
Any one with more interest in this can contact me.
Better yet come to the Austin Steel Guitar Co-op and try mine...1.2.3. I saw Miles and Miles of Texas
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes
What brand /model of S12U do you have?
Can you post the current set up of your U12? That would be helpful for us U12 guys to offer advice.
I learned U12 from Jeff and started with his 7x4 setup with E's lowering on RKR, and no LKR.
My main S12U is currently set up as a 6x6 (with a LKR and two RKL's).
Sierra addressed the issue of keeping E raise/lowers on LKL/LKR (Emmons setup) by making LKR capable of "locking" the E's to Eb, and flipping LKR up out of the way when you play B6.
In general, I am a big fan of having the ability to lock the E's to Eb on S12U steels.
I have played S12U's with the E>Eb on LKR, and it wasn't a big deal at all, as long as you can reach all the pedals with relative ease.
It makes no sense to me to put the E lowers on the left knee of a U-12. The idea is to engage the E lowers and then have free range of the pedal board. I don't see how that can be done with the left foot while the left knee engages a lever.
I also find it easy to use RKR as all I need to do is flop my leg comfortable out and let gravity do the rest. RKL requires constant muscle application and pressure to maintain for a long period.
I never played anything but U-12 and I am not hampered by preconceptions. I try intentionally not to think in E9 or B6 terms- Just play music where it is found most conveniently on the guitar. I try to remember that the guitar serves me in ways I direct, it is not my master and it does not dictate playing style by it's configuration. I often mix E9 chord techniques with 6th techniques. But to simply imitate 6th tuning on a U12 the permanently engaged right knee seems more logical.
I'd like an opinion on whether to raise B to D or lower (RKL) or lower E to D? Seems like E to D would be comfortable for C6 converts used to doing without a tonic from time to time....the B to D is more comfortable for me, but is there an aspect of chordal utility I haven't considered???
That is interesting, Chuck.
I believe David Wright used to play a Thomas S12U, so he might have some insight as to its mechanical cababilities and limitations if any.
You might put the pedals on the rack, and hook them up to see if you can reach pedals 4-7 while holding in LKR.
One problem I see is that it will be hard to use LKV (B>Bb) while holding in LKR (maybe you can fabricate a way to easily lock the E>Eb when playing B6).
I use that B>Bb LKV change quite a bit in my B6th playing.
Is it just a matter of hooking up the pedals for P4-P7?... or has all the pedal 4-7 hardware been removed?
Bob Simons wrote:It makes no sense to me to put the E lowers on the left knee of a U-12. The idea is to engage the E lowers and then have free range of the pedal board. I don't see how that can be done with the left foot while the left knee engages a lever.
I also find it easy to use RKR as all I need to do is flop my leg comfortable out and let gravity do the rest. RKL requires constant muscle application and pressure to maintain for a long period.
I never played anything but U-12 and I am not hampered by preconceptions. I try intentionally not to think in E9 or B6 terms- Just play music where it is found most conveniently on the guitar. I try to remember that the guitar serves me in ways I direct, it is not my master and it does not dictate playing style by it's configuration. I often mix E9 chord techniques with 6th techniques. But to simply imitate 6th tuning on a U12 the permanently engaged right knee seems more logical.
I'd like an opinion on whether to raise B to D or lower (RKL) or lower E to D? Seems like E to D would be comfortable for C6 converts used to doing without a tonic from time to time....the B to D is more comfortable for me, but is there an aspect of chordal utility I haven't considered???
Bob, I know what you mean but there are guys out there holding in LKR and playing pedals 4-7 all with their left leg.
That gravitational pull thing that works for you on RKR, works just the opposite for some guys who's legs naturally fall to the inside instead of outside, and have E>Eb's on RKL (think Jerry Lewis...."Hey Ladie" )
I'm with you on the the E9/B6/One-Big-Tuning thing. It's all there all the time.
I have both the E>D (string 8 ), and B>D (string 9), and find them both useful in different musical contexts.
Because I can lock my E>Eb's on RKR, I can also use the B>D on RKL in B6th mode if I want to.
Pete
When I put it together I hooked them all up but the 4-7 pedals do not do anything. The rods are in the case. The vertical knee is not hooked up and is in the case as well. I guess I'm pretty much starting from scratch....lol
It's not just for "B6th mode". There are advantages to lowering your E's on the right knee in "E9th mode" as well. In the F lever positions, you gain a full-step change on the E string by engaging it as you release the F lever.
I didn't see any bell cranks on the bars for the pedals. They may be in the case. I have to go to work now so I'll look tommorrow. Well a closer look at the pix and the bell cranks are in the case and clearly visible. I have the rods and they are to length so I thought about using them to determine how it was originaly hooked up.
Thanx for the help
Last edited by Chuck Hall on 12 Jan 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bob Simons wrote:It makes no sense to me to put the E lowers on the left knee of a U-12. The idea is to engage the E lowers and then have free range of the pedal board. I don't see how that can be done with the left foot while the left knee engages a lever.
I understand your point, Bob, but then there's the opposite problem: How can your left leg range over the whole pedalboard without hitting LKR? I realize you could fold it up. But if you have to do that, you lose some of the "one big tuning" aspect of the uni.
You know, as bad (or good) as I hate to say it, the RKR feels natural even for the lowering of the E's. JEFF"S BOOK SAID TO PUT THE VERTICAL KNEE AS CLOSE TO THE MIDDLE AS POSSIBLE. I GUESS that would work if the LKR was folded up (darn shift key keeps sticking)
John- I don't think it is much of a problem. LKR gets a little in the way but I can get to pedal 8 if I need to. Besides, my Zum has LKR set back a little to provide a little more room to pass. If I'm really abandoning the E9 pedals and levers for a while I can move my knee to the right of the lever fairly easily for a while. I also have the long vertical which works great.
I can hold the RKR and operate a volume pedal fine. I can't imagine holding LKR and operating pedals 4-8 skilfully.
I've just switched to Sierra U12 which has the Emmons set up - i also just got Jeff's Universal course the same as you - i decided to politely ignore his suggestions for the right knee lever - like you, i want to play my regular E9th guitar too so i want to keep things as similar as possible - also i wonder if intuitive / improvisational playing would be adversely effected by such a radical physical change to playing. I think he advocates playing nothing but the universal and not switching between guitars but i'm still hedging my bets!
I also disagree with Jeff's rejection of the change lock as a good idea - i think it's almost as easy to pull the change lock off as it is to disengage the left knee - all said his course is really clear and useful i think....
I'm also terrified of making mechanical adjustments to the Sierra - Just looking at it's underside frightens me!
Tim the reason NOT to have a lock on the E's according to Newman is to free your mind from thinking that you are playing an old C6th neck. It is conceptually a Universal tuning- not an imitation of a 6th tuning from a double neck.
Having Steels both with and without lever locks, my opinion is that having a lock just makes the intrument "more Universal".
If you have one, you can either use it, or not use it (if you don't have it you lose that option).
If you are new to the 6th side of the tuning, you will likely be spending 10's-100's-1000's of hours practicing the 6th tuning of your S12U (kind of a pre-requiste to playing the instrument as One-Big Tuning). I reccomend a bungie cord or something along those lines to lock the E>Eb change during this time (unless you want to enguage and hold the lever under your own power for that time).
You should check out Larry Bells take on S12U, also.
Chuck,
Ive been playing a Mullen 3x5 E9 with the E levers on left for about three years. I just rebuilt a Fessenden U-12 8x5 and followed many suggestions on the forum regarding this. I lower Es on RKR and raise on LKL. Here's my copedent:
My LKR has a half stop which initially lowers 8 to a major 7th, then lowering 2 and 8 (unison) to a dominant 7th.
The RKR also has a half stop lowering 2 to a dominant 7th first, then lowering Es and string 2 another half for the B6 stuff. I find that having access to these 7th changes on either side is advantageous. I dont miss the 9th string D at all!
I also set up pedal 1 as a 0 pedal which comes in handy when in B6 mode, since its a similar change to RKL, which is unavailable when holding RKR.
I've gotten used to the E lower on RKR pretty quickly and am learning to use the B6 pedals 4-8, which I may switch around a little at some point.
Clete
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