Beginner players...........given wrong direction?

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

Many of the posts here on the Forum seem to be newer students of steel guitar.

Some, lamenting their frustrations at the learning process, etc., wherein some speak of anxiously learning CHOPS & LICKS while others touch upon the difficulties associated with "learning the melody".

I'm wondering if the idea of "Learning as many chops and licks as possible"......is the proper direction that should be given to the newer students? Playing steel guitar, IMHO, is much more complicated that merely hooking together a string of unrelated CHOPS from different artists, etc.

Is it possible these newer students have been lead down the wrong path into a box canyon full of darkness and confusion, if you will?

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Learning to play the basics until familiar enough to venture into adding more and more into the material they are familiar with, will usually work out the best. Too many get the licks down, but have no idea at all how to use them. So yes! That could be a bad idea.

Us older folks, had to learn the licks along with the players we heard on vinyl, in order to play. As we didn't think of them as being licks at all. They were simply how the folks in Nashville doing the recordings, were doing the material. So whatever was on the old records is what we learned off of.

Wow! How much easier do today's new players have it from what we (especially the ones not living in the Nashville area) had it, while learning.

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

Don! I used to spend hour after hour with my ear
crammed into that tiny little 4 inch speaker on my Webcor record player......listening to tunes, over and over, until I had every note in the right place.

You're absolutely correct. I learned from some of the most outstanding players in Nashville, in that way.

Speed Picking Licks strung together without meaning or fitting into the song at hand.....does not a steel guitar player make.

[Bob Hoffnar]

There is nothing to worry about. All sorts of information is available for new players. what the student does with the information is up to themselves.

[James Morehead]

hey Ray, Good points. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. It's tough for a newbie to sort out what gets him "there" fair and square. It can take years to unlearn bad habits--years that could just as well be spent playing at higher levels. But that's just an opinion--my opinion.

[Tony Prior]

Forums like this one are exceptional for information and for taping resources. The problem is, and it is not limited to this forum, when a new player is asking for advise or suggestions they may be getting advise which is incorrect or not accurate.

We read all the time that we have been playing for 2,3, 5, 7, 10 years, longer even......what does that really mean ?

If we are a 10 year player, have we repeated the first year 10 times or did we actually learn the language which took 10 years ?

I don't say it's a bad thing to participate but it may be very difficult for a new player to sort through the high grass. How long we have been playing is not a qualifier for ability or skill is all I am saying. It should not be a pre-requisite for a new player to know with regard to assistance from someone.

I can probably tell you how to build a house but it may take you twice as long and cost twice as much !

Welcome to the Internet

Welcome to the Future !

t

[Ben Jones]

Learning to play the melody is something I need alot of work on. I dont have a regular teacher. I beg the occasional lesson off players I admire, but basically Im on my own. As Bob H. said there is alot of info out there. I imagine (tho i wouldnt know) that one of the benefits of having an instructor would be that he or she might help you wade thru some of that material and focus on whats most important. Otherwise you are left with alot of info , and alot of conflicting opinions. The forum is a good teacher but as we have seen recently, not conflict free.

anyway, I rely on the advice I get here quite a bit, and have learned alot, maybe most, of what little I know right here. So......


do any of you have a suggestion for ways to learn to "play the melody". Should I throw on Jimmy days steel and strings and just go for it? Its had to figure out harmonized melodies from a record, at least its hard for me. single lines? no problem usually but harmonized stuff, theres alot of variables and possible positions etc. any suggestions? Ray, did you ever teach or do you now? thanks in advance

[Larry Johnson]

I agree Ray. From my personal experience, long ago, my teacher sat down with me and said( What Do YOU Want To Learn On The Pedal Steel?) He was very wise in that,He said I can teach you A lot on the steel ,BUT if YOU don't want to learn it ,WE are both wasting our time.I thought for a moment and said,I want you to teach me how to make the CRYING sound ,and to make someone listening, MAKE THEIR LIVER QUIVER!HE did,Larry

[Danny Hall]

I hope I'm not out of line here. First let me say I've never touched a PSG in my life. I've come here to get started.

Music has at least a few tried and true process that work for any instrument. If I was king of the world I'd make everybody start on keyboard. I didn't. I started on fiddle and moved to saxophone when my folks relocated and my new school district didn't offer violin.

If a guy sat down to any polychromatic instrument and learned Loui Loui and Heart and Soul; working his way around the circle of 5ths he's going to be useful with that instrument. The next thing is the scales. How many of them? I can't answer that, certainly not all 12 but at least the pentatonic and the blues scale will make the player useful. Double stops and triads of majors, minors, into fifths and sevenths etc. Shouldn't that work on every kind of animal?

Every method book I've ever seen wants to start out teaching a song without telling the student how to transpose that song into another key. "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" for cryin' out loud.

My problem on 6 string is I never did that. I play lead strictly by ear. My Pastor, who plays real good rhythm asked me to teach him how to play lead and I couldn't help him because I don't know technically how I do it. As we move through 1,4,5 or any other progression I play the notes that are in harmony with those chords. Great; some help that is.

I'll bet you for every guitarist out there who knows what he's doing and can tell you how, there's ten idiots like me.

When I get started on this new instrument I'm going to try and learn like I'm learning the piano. Chords, Progressions, scales, and harmony. Tedious I suppose but time tested.

[Len Ryder]

Ray:
A lot of newer players try to be B.E. too fast and haven't learned the basics. My old adage is "learn to walk before you try to run".
Len Ryder

[Alan Brookes]

This Forum is a healthy mixture of professionals, neo-professionals, amateurs, enthusiasts and listeners. Unfortunately a newcomer or casual reader can pick up bad advice until he knows which is which.

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

Daniel.....you talk of things I've NEVER dealt with during my 65 years of playing the electric Hawaiian steel guitar. This seems to be a commonality among some teachers....and correct, it just might be.

Yet, I've played in just about every venue exept the Grand Ole Opry, Louisiana Hayride, etc.

I can't play as good as many..........but I can surely play alot better than many I've encountered that know all of those things of which you speaketh.

My point: I truly believe many aspiring students of our favorite instrument get chased out of the arena because of the TECHNICAL STUFF that's dumped on them right off the bat. Knowing all of that proper stuff is one thing; knowing how to play the instrument is quite another, IMHO.

[Joe Miraglia]

Add a lick with a lick plus a chop and a few notes, a scale,play a different chord,you know what You are playing a melody. Just like baking a cake,a little bit of this and a pinch of this. Joe

[Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)]

Hi, Ray ...
This thread really takes me back to my beginning days on steel and makes me reflect on it. When I started steel guitar, I bought and hit my very first note on the 18th of March 1976. All I had was a little tuning chart that the guy I bought my first steel from included with my guitar (which was a humble little MSA Red Baron).

Needless to say, I was totally lost and didn't even meet another steel player until I'd had the thing for about three weeks. During that three weeks, I remember just sitting down at it and examining all of it's aspects and learning the function of the pedals and the two knee levers that were on that guitar (one was stock and one had been added).

For me, it was a real process of experimentation. I started finding that strings 3,4,5,6,8 and 10 gave me a natural chord and strings 1,2 & 7 gave me some chromatic ability. I stumbled on some interesting sounds playing around with strings 5,6 and 9. I experimented with the pedals and knee levers and began to discover their functions and various combinations that worked with certain strings. I concentrated mostly on picking attach, bar position and movement, bar shiver and control, things like that. Having no instructor or instructional material, these all seemed like logical things to work on first. It was definitely an adventure that I had a lot of fun with.

One of the first things I did was search for material on pedal steel guitar. It really surprised me as I visited several music stores that I could not find one single thing that had to do with pedal steel guitar. About two months into my steel adventure, I finally found something at a music store in Lawton, OK ... a copy of Winnie Winston's book. I bought it on the spot (and still have that copy today). Man, I thought I'd struck gold with that book.

Looking back on it, I don't for a moment ever regret the way I learned how to play when I started, but I can't help but wonder if I'd have progressed a bit faster if I'd had some of today's instructional material right from the start. I'm happy to see that there's such a wonderful array of resources for the new or beginning steel player out there today and so much to draw from that can be so very helpful.

Your thread really made me reflect on my own beginnings and then, for the fun of it, I asked myself this question: "If I were a beginning steel player starting from complete scratch today with all the resources available, how would I approach learning steel? Would I want to do anything different?" I guess I'd still approach it with the same protocols I did before and learn some fundamentals and basics first (picking attack, bar movement, position and control, pedal & knee lever functions, etc.) before actually moving on to trying to learn specific songs, licks and chord progressions.

My dad always used to tell me, never try to put the cart before the horse.

[Kevin Hatton]

Deleted for content.

[Eric West]

Well, it's pretty much like this.

A person is affected by what they hear, or see WRT Pedal Steel Guitar.

They HAVE to get "that sound".

They find early on that they'll need a TEACHER because is't not as easy as they thought to get the notes clear, or play the phrases that must be done by doing things not that evident to the listner, like blocking and crossing over.

If they survive or want to play what they heard or experienced badly enough, they will not find it too difficult to get "started".

Then it's a process of learning to play more and more things.

Within the first year, it's important they get out and play with other musicians. It helps with mental processes, and matters of needed clarity and definition.

Getting paid is a final form of self esteem that IMHO is necessary to complete the initial process. It's not easy to fool yourself with all of the little details of public gigs. Good or Bad.

People need to keep into perspecive what they love about playing pedal steel guitar, whether it's playing live, recording or what have you.

Get on track for that course, and stay on that course as long as they can.

Off to the gig..



EJL

[Justin Griffith]

Speed Picking Licks strung together without meaning or fitting into the song at hand.....does not a steel guitar player make.

I agree Ray, I sure would like to hear a little more melody.

[Danny Hall]

My point: I truly believe many aspiring students of our favorite instrument get chased out of the arena because of the TECHNICAL STUFF that's dumped on them right off the bat. Knowing all of that proper stuff is one thing; knowing how to play the instrument is quite another, IMHO.

I don't doubt you for a minute Ray. I just know that in MY case, just once I want to start an instrument the other way. If that fails I'll sort it out by ear.

In the mean time, anybody here can teach me all I know about this instrument. I am truely Sargent Shultz of the Pedal Steel.

[Eric West]

DH.

I'm not sure what you're saying but the steel is a little different in that it takes a couple time developed and tested things like blocking, alternating picking with blocking inbetween, and how to best attack the strings with picks that it's worthwhile to try and find someone that has learned it and pick their brains at least. Probably closer to a stringed harp in that respect.

It's not some kind of "alchemy", but it's not as easy to pick things distinctly as some instruments.

It's layed out so easily chord wise that it's one of the easiest "ear instruments" after the initial getting to know how to pick notes out of it and keep notes you're not playing from ringing.

If you'r an "ear player" you'll make yourself work at the "intonation" automatically. It just won't sound right to you until it is..




EJL

[basilh]

Ray, you ARE 100% correct, The learning of TUNES as opposed to stringing together a bunch of licks, would be the way to go if a player wished to become MUSICALLY proficient.
Conversely the present focus seems to be on sounding and playing like everyone else, so the licks, runs, turnarounds whatever, would seem to be the way that beginners are now lead, unfortunately.

It seems to me that it's being emphasised by too many "Teachers" that musical knowledge isn't required to play the steel guitar, and that, whilst being (partially)true, is NOT the way to go..IMHO..FWIW.

[Ronnie Boettcher]

My 2 cents is try to know what the melody is. If you have somewhat of a clue how the melody goes, "PLAY IT". As your playing the melody. mostly with your middle, or index finger, your thumb is sort of idle. Play your thumb on a string below your melody string. Now you basically have a third, fourth, fifth, or sixth, as a harmony, along with the melody note. As you play the melody note, you have to find the pedal, or knee combination, that fits with the melody note. You have to be able to hear, and feel what is right. For beginners, I think they only have to use one of three combinations. 1- no pedal or knee. 2- A-B pedal. 3- A-pedal and the knee that raises the 4-8 strings. With this, they can start to enjoy a ton of songs, and be happy knowing you are playing songs. Then along with that, they have to know what the 1-4-5 is for the basic chord changes. Like on a bar chord, the 4 is 5 frets up, and the 5 is 7 frets up. From there the beginners can find what they are looking for by experimenting. It just takes a lot of practice, and time. I know it can be confusing to someone just starting out, but we all did that when we started. Most of us, including me, started at a early age, and progressed through the years. Ronnie

[Pete Burak]

Hi Ray,
If you were going to give steel lessons to beginners, what topics would you cover in the first half dozen or so lessons to ensure they are given the correct instruction?
Just curious,
pete b.

[basilh]

Not wishing to pre-empt Ray's response, According to my experiences the first thing beginners need to know is how to put on the picks and hold the bar. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen beginners with the picks on as CLAWS i.e. like false nails.. I suppose to one who doesn't know better it seems logical.

Where to pick for best results and how to determine what tuning is best for you depending on your prior musical experience and instruments.

BEFORE you buy a guitar or amp, deciding what type of music you intend to play.

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

Basil, my friend, I couldn't have said it more eloquently. You are a master, for sure.

And to answer YOUR question Peter....

You and Eric, both fully realize that I'm neither a knowledgeable or skilled music teacher nor even the talented musician that the two of you are.

More importantly, I've never made any such claim. I've never boasted of the $100,000 or more I've earned in my lengthy lifetime, playing steel guitar. Nor, have I bragged about how many bands I'm playing in at the same time and how I won't play for less than $$xxxxxx per gig like some folks do.

From your infrequent posts, usually following a post of my own, the two of you after weeks of being absent here on the Forum, go to great lengths to infer that my thinking or personal experience is in someway in error; that my 'toy plastic guitar' just can't do the job it was intended for; that my under-powered antique amp just doesn't have it with 8-10 watts of output........, that sharing my observations with others here on the Forum about what I've witnessed on stage behind a steel guitar and felt was a worthwhile topic to be discussed here on the Forum, is an open door to the likes of you, to again and again, subject me to your unflattering inferences or criticism.

It's been suggested that I'm essentially olde and likely senile and since I'm unable to get a PAYING music gig like the rest of you BIG BOYS that find yourself picking and gasping inside the loop, playing in beer joints and trucks stops, that my primary goal remaining in life is to put down other struggling students of steel guitar that are getting paid for being on stage.

I happen to know that you're both wrong in your assumptions. But, be that as it may, I didn't want you, PETE, to feel I was ignoring your latest jab that was followed up by Basils' remarks before I had the opportunity to address your comments in a forthright and timely manner.

PETER, I can remember how you came to my home after a phone call or two, and after having me demonstrate to YOU at length and FREE of charge, how Speedy West did his 'bar slam' affect without benefit of any electronic cut-off switch, and how I allowed you to practice this little item on my 1956, one-owner, 6-pedal, four neck BIGSBY guitar with my name emblazened on it......(The ONLY PERSON I've ever let sit down and play my guitar!!!) and how YOU then came to this FORUM without any mention of me or my courtesy to you, went on to preach how YOU had put it all together by your lonesome self and proceeded to share it with this Forum as tho' YOU were some kind of an 'EXPERT'.

I'd be grateful PETER, if you and your friend, would simply leave me and any posts that I might choose to make, out of your nasty circle. Let me go my way and you two, go your way. There's no good reason for you to be in my face!

To everyone else, I apologize for this tirade.

It's this kind of negative and destructive crap that has been directed at me, that has been appearing on the Forum in increasing volume of late, that is chasing away the Emmons', and other notably great musicians from this FORUM.

[Danny Hall]

DH.

I'm not sure what you're saying but the steel is a little different in that it takes a couple time developed and tested things like blocking, alternating picking with blocking inbetween, and how to best attack the strings with picks that it's worthwhile to try and find someone that has learned it and pick their brains at least. Probably closer to a stringed harp in that respect.

It's not some kind of "alchemy", but it's not as easy to pick things distinctly as some instruments.

It's layed out so easily chord wise that it's one of the easiest "ear instruments" after the initial getting to know how to pick notes out of it and keep notes you're not playing from ringing.

If you'r an "ear player" you'll make yourself work at the "intonation" automatically. It just won't sound right to you until it is..




EJL

Thanks Eric. Makes sense to me. Oh, and looking forward a post or two. I did notice from watching a cut or two on youtube that those national steel picks do go on the fingers different than when using them on 6 string. Every little bit helps.