An Aussie, new to this Forum

[John Ed Kelly]

I have been keenly reading the many posts on the Forum for almost a year and now have decided to participate in this excellent board to gain insights from those more experienced than me, because, sadly Australia has few steel players when compared to the USA.

About 10 months ago I lashed out on a 6 string steel as I have been very interested in this guitar style, pretty much all of my playing life, I discover upon reflection. I first heard Bob Wills band way back in the late 60s and distinctly recall being knocked out listening to ''White Heat''.

I took up the clarinet (Albert system) as a teenager though (I'm now 61) and played regularly in New Orleans style jazz bands but unfortunately the bottom seems to have dropped out, the audiences are becoming ever smaller and older. I still play the clarinet, but my music practice is more focused on the steel these days.

I'd appreciate any advice you folks may have to offer of course, so I guess I'd better describe my setup before proceeding any further, it's pretty basic as you'll gather.

I have a Martinez (Chinese) 6 string. It's brand new and seems adequate from my perspective. I'm playing through an old Guyatone PA amplifier as I'm unsure as to what I should be spending my money on, but the aim is to get (maybe) a 50w, tube job.

I'm a lefty too, and to complicate matters I play it upside down, with the bass on the bottom.

The current tuning (L to H) is: Eb, F, A, C, D, F. According to my piano keyboard tutorial book this equates to an F13 (minus the G). My music theory is not great, so I'm happy to be corrected by someone with more knowledge - please feel free to do so!

I have heaps of questions and would like to hear from anyone with good advice, in particular, from the folks who play jazz and western swing.

Many thanks,

JEK

[Josh Cho]

John,

First of all, welcome to our new friend from Down Under.

You indeed have an interesting setup that I've never seen or heard of before--doesn't mean it won't work for you, and in fact, you may end up showing US something new!

Secondly, you're right on the money-your tuning is F13.

The 9th degree (g) is not required in the stack since you have the flatted 7 and 6th degree--so I'd say your theory is better than most actualy

BTW, your tuning is just a half step above E13 to the T, which is (L to H) D E G# B C# E

Any particular reason you use that tuning? Just curious, and looking forward to hearing more!

Best wishes and G'day,

Josh

[Don McGregor]

Turn that thing around, Son.
I'm getting a headache trying to figure out how you are going to manage 3 string slants. Seems like you'd need one of those double ended bars that's round on both ends and hard to hold. Good luck.
As for amps, I like small tube amps best for lap steel. You need some reverb, but that can be added with a reverb pedal if you get an amp without it.
Fenders, Gibson, Gretsch, Magnatone, Silvertone, Harmony, National, Supro, Airline, (the last 5 were all made by Valco in their heyday) all made a wide range of amp styles and sizes. Anywhere from 5 watts to 30 can sound really good imo. I like an amp that's not too big to crank up to it's full tone potential.
If you want lots of clean volume, then look to more powerful amps like the Fender Twin, Musicman 120, or solid state amps like Peavey's Nashville 112.
I play mostly through an early 70's Fender Vibrolux Reverb, or a 60's Fender Vibrolux non-reverb, and add reverb through a Holy Grail stomp box.
If you want to replicate the Golden Era sounds of swing and jazz, then the less powerful old tube amps are what you want. There just weren't any really powerful guitar amps back in those days.
For more modern sounds, solid state amps can be loud, clean, and relatively lightweight.
Look into British amps, too. I've got a WEM Dominator with one 12" speaker in it that rocks.
BTW, I own two early Guyatone six string lap steels. They were my first steels, and I still carry them around as backup instruments. I love them.
Is your Guyatone PA by any chance built with tubes, or a later model that is solid state. Either way, it could be a great sounding steel amp. A great deal of anyone's tone is in the hands, not the gear.
Do you turn your amplifier around backwards, as well? Just curious.
We think you're wacky, but we're with you.

Keep us posted.

[Mike Neer]

John Ed, the tuning you describe is a good one, except I would lower it a half step to the key of E. Second, since you've only been at it for 10 months, this would be a good time to turn the steel around and play it with the bass strings closest to you. You could either play it right-handed or restring it. My bet is that restringing would be better for you. It will be extremely difficult, although not impossible to continue down this road. I'm not aware of any other players who play this way, although I have known quite a few guitarists who do.

One of the reasons it will be a benefit to you is that slanting on the treble strings is much easier than it is on the bass, mostly because of where they are--it's just easier. Second, your thumb does most of the picking work and very often (at least in my case) playing seems to be built from the bottom upwards.

Give it a try. If I can think of any more reasons I'll weigh in again, but anyway, good luck with your playing. I like the E13 tuning a lot and use it on one neck of my Fender T-8. If you think of the straight bar chord, say G13 on fret 3, a forward slant on strings 4, 5 and 6 (frets 4, 3, 2 respectively) will give you a V7 - I resolution.

[Don McGregor]

A coat will keep you just as warm if you put it on backwards, but it sure is hard to button up.

[John Ed Kelly]

Josh wrote ''Any particular reason you use that tuning? Just curious, and looking forward to hearing more!''

Hi Josh, my aim is to possibly form a small band, with some brass or reeds, in which we'd play the New Orleans repertoire. This would entail playing in the ''brass'' keys mainly Ab, Bb, F, C, Eb - most of the traditional N.O. book uses these keys. I figure that makes sense for me as I will be able to use open stringing more readily. I guess I could have gone for C6, and indeed I did initially, with the aid of a book tutor, however I could not understand the numbering system and my dot reading ability is severely limited as I have been a ''head'' player all my life.

Basically, I just poked around with tunings and stumbled on the F tuning in the process. The progression to the 13th was in an effort to obtain more elaborate chords without resorting to the slant - I'll need to know how to do this, of course, and maintain intonation - something which eludes me at present. I have even started thinking about getting an 8 stringer, but one should learn to crawl before walking though.

cheers,

john

[b0b]

The tuning makes sense to me, but I think that you might find C6/A7 to be more versatile: C# E G A C E. It has a lower, jazzier sound plus it gives you rich, low positions for Eb6 (3rd fret) and Bb7 (1st fret).

[John Ed Kelly]

Don McGregor writes ''Turn that thing around, Son.
I'm getting a headache trying to figure out how you are going to manage 3 string slants.''

I'm coming to grips with the slant technique - at present I have none - so I will probably get some lessons from a local master, Rick Dempster, does anyone one know him?

Good amp advice Don, many thanks for that. Incidentally the Guyatone has reverb, but I don't use it - maybe I should. I don't know if it's tube or tranny actually, I should take the back off and have a look. It warms up fairly quickly, so I suspect it's not a valve job - it's got 120 wqtts though. I don't turn the amp around (heh, heh) but my home made speaker box has the back removed now.

Thanks for calling me ''son'' too.

john

[John Ed Kelly]

Mike Neer writes: ''this would be a good time to turn the steel around and play it with the bass strings closest to you. You could either play it right-handed or restring it. '' and ''Second, your thumb does most of the picking work and very often (at least in my case) playing seems to be built from the bottom upwards. ''

Mike, I'm a born lefty and playing RH would be a nightmare for me. Try writing with your other hand to get an idea of what I'd be in for.

Re-stringing DID come to mind you know, but I'm stuck with a much earlier experience when I was regularly mucking about with my older brother's spanish guitar. I was under strict instructions NOT to touch it! Of course, that's a red rag to a bull situation, and consequently I ''developed'' spanish chord fingering which is upside down, bass on the bottom. I was 15 then and 61 now - I don't reckon I'll change - unfortunately it's hardwired at my age. Plasticity of the brain has it's limits.

I forgot to mention - I use a thumbpick of course, and all of the other four pinkys without picks. I'm aware (from watching innumerable Youtube videos) that most folks use the thumb + two, but having played the clarinet for so long, I guess I have reasonable finger dexterity and have opted for thumb + four. To my ear it sounds great moving up or down the neck five strings at a time. I'm working on building up the little finger to do the bass job. Sounds weird, but so far I'm having fun. Roll on formal lesson time!

thanks

john

[John Ed Kelly]

b0b writes: ''The tuning makes sense to me, but I think that you might find C6/A7 to be more versatile:''

You are probably right b0b, but I'll wait until I get some lessons - perhaps I'll be convinced to change.

Maybe a double neck job or a 10 stringer is the answer - I guess I'd use both tunings then. I still can't get all the chords desiredwith my F13 - the diminished is unavailable with the straight bar as far I'm aware - so some solid practice with slants and string bending seem to be what I need.

thanks,

john

[Don McGregor]

Ricky Davis has a magical site that, among other wonderful things, hosts a chord finder. You can choose a tuning from a long list, choose a root note, choose a chord/interval/scale, and click "show this chord".
A fretboard diagram appears showing where all the notes are that apply.
There are definitely diminished and augmented chords available. You just need a hint as to where to look.
Slants seemed very hard for me at first, and good intonation takes a lot of practice. It is so rewarding when you get one right, however, the practice comes easy.
BTW, I find it a little easier to play 3 string slants in tune on my two console steels with 22-1/2" scales than on the Guyatones, as, from nut to bridge, they only measure 20-1/2". It seems there is a magic area in scale length measurement where slants, especially down near the nut, are easiest. Many players prefer 22-1/2", though many also prefer a longer scale, as this allows the use of heavier strings, and thus, a fuller tone. I get some wonderful sounds out of the Guyatones, anyway, but I prefer my National and Carvin double 8's with 22-1/2" scale, and 3/8" string spacing. I am building a triple neck at present to these specs so I will have three tunings at hand.
I, too, fingerpick guitar, and use thumb and three fingers. After a while, however, I gave up on the third finger on steel. Muting and blocking are important parts of steel playing, and I'm still not where I would like to be with it. Learning to hit the right notes is a lot of work. Learning how to keep the unwanted sounds from escaping is just as hard. I need to be able to stretch out my little finger, and lay it down across the strings behind my picking digits, and I can't do this and still retain good use of my third finger. Sacrificing the use of one finger has helped my picking technique in many ways. It has altered the way my hand thinks on steel, and, oddly enough, it has given me new insights on picking the guitar, which I continue to do with thumb and 3.
8 strings is better for me. As an old guitarist (I am 59), it took quite a leap of faith for me to go there, but I am very, very glad I did. It opened up WORLDS. I am also building a 10 string, which might be more than I can chew, but I've got to experience it.
I also play alto saxophone, and played professionally for years with a New Orleans R&B/Memphis Soul style band featuring three saxes and sometimes a trombone, (More Neville Bros & Yellow Jackets than Dixieland, but we did both). I was always just as comfortable with guitar keys on sax, but on steel, as you say, with a choice use of open strings, and oddly tuned steel pitch might work well in the Bb Eb keys.
I currently have my Carvin's necks tuned to C6 & A6 so it's like the same tuning, only with a capo, so I can choose where to play on the neck.
Steel guitar is always evolving, so we are curious to hear what interesting sounds you produce with this backwards, Down Under approach. You may discover new worlds.

Ricky Davis's Chord Finder :
http://tinyurl.com/ydq2k4q

[Mike Neer]

John Ed, one thing I've learned is that people are capable of anything if they set their minds to it. Nothing surprises me anymore, so if you're determined to make it work playing with the guitar strung that way, I know it will.

[Don McGregor]

If I could play as well as Mike Neer, I'd turn my steel upside down, and play it from the bottom, so people couldn't steal my licks.
Fortunately, Mike's attitude is more generous than that.
Mike, I've got your "Steelin' From the Masters" CD bookmarked at the top of my Christmas wishlist, prominently displayed for my Wife to see. No kidding, it's at the top.

[John Ed Kelly]

Don wrote "Ricky Davis has a magical site that, among other wonderful things, hosts a chord finder..........''

It's good Don and I emailed Ricky to possibly add my tuning to his chord finder. He is not adding to the site as I understand his reply, and so referred me back to the Forum.

I'll plough on though using the piano tutor as a guide. It's got good keyboard picture shots with note overlays and as I have a little familiarity with the piano, I'll go through all the keyboard charts until I find out what the scope of my tuning is.

thanks,

john

[Paul DiMaggio]

John Ely's website has a "custom" tuning option in his chord finder application.

[Mark Mansueto]

I'm a lefty too, and to complicate matters I play it upside down, with the bass on the bottom.

Welcome, John.

Just curious... why not reverse the strings so that the bass is on your side? I'm sure you'll figure out a way to play with the strings backwards but it will make it more difficult for an instructor to show you techniques.

[Danny James]

What Mark says makes a lot of sense if your not already too far into what your used to now.

This way you can still efficently play left handed and also, In my opinion at least, you should find it will work much better for you to get the slants which you definately will need to do sooner or later.

Best of luck whatever you end up with, and welcome to the Forum. There's no better place to be for good experienced advice for playing the steel guitar

[b0b]

The current tuning (L to H) is: Eb, F, A, C, D, F.
...
I still can't get all the chords desiredwith my F13 - the diminished is unavailable with the straight bar as far I'm aware - so some solid practice with slants and string bending seem to be what I need.

Strings 6, 4, 3 give you the second inversion of the Adim triad.

[John Ed Kelly]

Thanks b0b,

I have not got the the key of ''A" page in my piano tutor, so thanks for saving me a long search.

cheers,

john

[John Ed Kelly]

Mark Mansueto wrote: '' I'm sure you'll figure out a way to play with the strings backwards but it will make it more difficult for an instructor to show you techniques.''

There is a solution to playing ''backwards'' I'm sure Mark, but I'm sure I don't know if I will persist at this point. I spoke with Rick Dempster again yesterday and he invited me over to discuss it fully and to have a look at my desperate plucking style to see if he can accomodate my quirky ''technique''. If he says I have to re-string, I guess I will.

Despite all this, I'm hoping I can make a bit of sense with the steel a little sooner than I took with the clarinet.

thanks,

john