"Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places?

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 21 Oct 2009 7:31 am

Reece, you bet I think your playing is great, as a matter of fact, I know of no one that knows music better than you and still plays steel guitar.

Your teaching skills are also above and beyond us mortal masses,

Sure, speaker cones are paper, but they don't hear very well, they just speak

,

I don't agree with you on everything, (the black guitar issue) but you make such great arguments that I love,,, and it's fun sparing with you.

I'll let it be known now and forever that your playing and musical abilities are possibly the best in the field. Not the most commercial, not the mightiest E9th, but in fifty years of knowing you, I've never seen a song that you can't play,,, in several styles and with great taste. There has never been a job that you can't cut, with class and style.

Now, where were we? Oh yea, Black has no accoustical properties, (unless it's a black speaker cone, paper?)
Los Bobbster

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Oct 2009 8:43 am

Johnny C…..Sorry I missed your visit to the factory yesterday. Thank you for stopping by, all the gang were glad to see you.

I appreciate your sharing your sound comparisons. I agree that the majority of sound/tone is in the players hands.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and join the conversation.

Clyde M…..Thank you for your comment. When we were doing comparisons we didn’t necessarily “home in” on particular songs, but rather that of associated common steel sounds. Doing it that way at least partially eliminated the variable you’re talking about.

Los Bobbster…..As we have said to each other many times, true friends don’t always have to agree.

Considering our past differences yet remaining true friends through it all, is a testament to true friendship and the blessing and grace of forgiveness.

I most sincerely appreciate your kind words.

Now where were we….oh yeah…I NEVER said black guitars sound different!

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 21 Oct 2009 8:51 am

Reece, my ditto was for b0b's post of Black PSG guitars having the best tone.
I think the best of the best tone could be any color old P/P b0b refers to, after I do a mod on it like changing the color to black by setting it on fire and put the fire out with a pocket knife.
After years of P/P hyped tone being shoved in my face like a big butt, I've learned to hate the sound of even the name.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 21 Oct 2009 8:52 am

Everyone knows black guitars sound best. Come on, guys!

Also Bobbe, all speaker "paper" isn't created equal. Hemp cones sound best.

These are my opinions, verifiable by the shadows I see on the walls of my cave. Until new shadows appear, I will not be swayed by your so-called logic!

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 21 Oct 2009 9:06 am

Reece, I enjoyed my visit. I hope to get to spend an afternoon with you while I'm home. I just wanted to add two things. I also did an experiment using one track off my Life After Nashville CD. Same mix, same song just three different guitars, MSA Legend, the Sho-Bud and the Jackson. Only Joan and I listened and she could not tell me which was which. The other thing is none of these guitars are black. Nor was the guitar Buddy played on the Black Album. That guitar is a rosewood split tail pp.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 21 Oct 2009 9:51 am

Can someone tell me, or exemplify, what "associated common steel sounds" (term used by Reece) are?
I'm trying to figure out where on my own like/dislike scale those steel sounds are, and to what degree that affects my perception and standpoint on where to "look" for tone.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Oct 2009 9:57 am

Bo L….Thank you for your explanation.

b0b….Your still typing too loud in places. I think you’re just trying to stir the pot? I’ll know for sure if you mention a banjo!

Hummm…living in a cave ehh….that could explain why you have an aversion to logic.

Johnny C…..It will always be a pleasure to visit with you. My best to Joan as well.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 21 Oct 2009 10:57 am

Whew,,,,,,,

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 21 Oct 2009 12:04 pm

associated common steel sounds

Georg, can I have a shot at it?
Related sounds that you hear in every steel, be it PP, MSA or Bud.

Like when Joe the Common Listener hears a song on the radio and the steel man tears into a nice break. Ohhh! I know!! That's the steel guitar! I'll go and buy that CD.

Does Joe Common care what brand of steel it is?
You can bet your boots he don't. But Joe didbuy that CD. In the end, that is really what matters, isn't it....

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 21 Oct 2009 12:10 pm

b0b, Hemp? You are a funny guy!

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 21 Oct 2009 12:26 pm

Well, Bent, that doesn't tell me much since I have no idea what Joe Common buys, or why.
For all I know you may mean the sounds that make Joe Common's neighbor decide not to buy...

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 21 Oct 2009 12:59 pm

Georg Sørtun wrote:Well, Bent, that doesn't tell me much since I have no idea what Joe Common buys, or why.
For all I know you may mean the sounds that make Joe Common's neighbor decide not to buy...

Well, now Georg, you are just being argumentative.

You, the player, plays something that gets played on the radio. You don't know whether or not Joe or anybody likes it or not. You take your chances so to speak. Joe hears it, loves it and buys the CD. So the "why" is right there: Why does Joe buy it? Because he likes it.

Yes, for all you know, obviously, it may mean the sounds that makes Joe's neighbor not buy.
But in the law of averages it might also be the music that Anne Regular also buys. Those are the chances you take when you put something on a record.
Common= known, recognized
Associated= related or likeness
Steel sounds= you know that one

Lump this all together and that is what the average guy in the street hears.

If this is still not clear to you, I guess you'll have to find your answer elsewhere

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 21 Oct 2009 1:02 pm

IF

the sound ("tone") of a Brand A guitar can be distinguished from a Brand B guitar by an experienced player/listener when the two brands are played side by side by the same player through the same signal chain (may take multiple listening/playing sessions)

AND

Brand A uses recipe 1 to build all their guitars (this design of changer with this kind of metal, this sort of wood at this thickness, these kind of legs, that kind of pickup, etc.)

AND

Brand B uses recipe 2 (different from recipe 1)

AND

both use good manufacturing techniques with tight tolerances and quality control

THEN

Brand A will have a consistent tonal "signature" that is distinguishable from Brand B

END IF

This is boolean logic (done VB script style for all you old schoolers out there

) No visual perceptions need apply.

However, can player A be influenced in what he/she thinks an instrument sounds like by how it visually appears?

Sure.

But, this does NOT mean that there are not quantifiable differences between Brand A and Brand B (assuming the logic statement above tests to true.)

An experienced player/listener will not be swayed by these sort of perception tricks, at least not for very long (usually!)

I know this is true for every instrument I'm aware of (guitar, piano, organ, lap steel,trumpet, etc.) so I'm not sure how this could be false for PSG.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 21 Oct 2009 1:33 pm

BobbeSeymour wrote:b0b, Hemp? You are a funny guy!

No, I'm serious! I use Tone Tubby Hempcone speakers. They're the best!

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 21 Oct 2009 1:51 pm

Bent Romnes wrote:Well, now Georg, you are just being argumentative.

Not at all. I'm trying to sort out which steel sounds that are regarded as "common", or even "good", by others. After all; those "common" sounds are probably what modern PSGs are built for, and why it may be so easy to make them sound the same - as is the main argument in this thread.

FWIW: I discovered decades ago that I'm not very "trendy" when it comes to music, and that only a very small part of what was/is regarded as "common" or "good" in any music genre passes as worth listening to, regardless of how good the musicians are. And so what; it isn't a problem for me, or others, unless I'm supposed to evaluate sounds based on some form of "common understanding", as I don't seem to have it.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 21 Oct 2009 2:41 pm

Georg Sørtun wrote: as I don't seem to have it.

Well, I hope you find it

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 21 Oct 2009 3:23 pm

Bent Romnes wrote:Well, I hope you find it

If it'll mean all PSGs start sounding the same when I play them, then I hope not

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 21 Oct 2009 5:55 pm

Mr. Anderson, could you please tell us the significant construction difference between a Derby guitar and an Emmons Le Grande II? In what way is a Derby guitar "nothing alike" an Emmons guitar?

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Oct 2009 8:47 pm

Mr.Hatton…..I appreciate your compliment toward me concerning the significant construction differences between other guitars.

If you will look from the beginning of this thread through to this post, you will find I have respectfully responded to many questions, yours included. You on the other hand have been talking about record players and skipping a rope or something else equally as off topic.

Surely you have an interest in this thread or you would not have posted so many times, therefore I must assume you have something intellectual to add to this conversation.... but are afraid or reluctant to say it.

I think it’s past time that you return my courtesy by responding to one of my questions, which is........ “do you or do you not have the ability to consistently indentify an inherent tone in a specific brand of guitar”? A simple yes or no will suffice for the moment.

I really don’t think that’s asking too much…do you? After all, you have yet to respond to even "one" question I’ve asked of you. I’ll even take your word if you tell me you have taken the comparison evaluation and you can identify a specific brand consistently…….. but if you do, I’m sure you’ll be proud to document your evaluation and identify witnesses and be willing to display your ability more than once.

I’ll be waiting for your return courtesy…….

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 21 Oct 2009 9:24 pm

Mr. Anderson. Are you afraid to answer my question? What significant construction differences are there between a Derby and an Emmons? How are they in your words not "unalike"? I believe that I could identify the guitars that I build more than not against another brand by its inherent tone. Whether I could or not has nothing to do with whether a guitar has inherent tone or not.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 22 Oct 2009 5:08 am

Mr.Hatton……What difference would it make if there is a significant construction difference between all brands of guitars if you can’t consistently identify an inherent tone in any of them?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Oct 2009 11:08 am

I'll answer the question for you Reece since you afraid to admit that your wrong. Ther Derby guitar is a near construction clone of an Emmons. Most other modern steel guitars are designed and constructed 90% the same. Two that are not are The hybrid Zum and a Fulawka. They have some unique construction qualities about them which is why they sound different.
Your record is skipping again Reece. Skip, skip, skip, skip....

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 22 Oct 2009 11:45 am

Man, that b0b sure can smoke them speakers.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 22 Oct 2009 11:54 am

Mr.Hatton….that which your saying about me makes absolutely no sense at all. Your grasping for straws and grabbing thin air. It’s “your” record that’s going round and round and skipping while I’m making a stand on my record.

You’re claiming the two guitars you speak of are different from the rest, thereby saying you can consistently identify either of those guitars in a comparison evaluation,.therefore making a public statement that the two guitars you named have a consistent inherent tone unlike all other guitars!

Just to be absolutely clear......Is this what you're saying???????????

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 22 Oct 2009 12:11 pm

Kevin:

I believe that I could identify the guitars that I build more than not against another brand by its inherent tone.

The(typo deleted) Derby guitar is a near construction clone of an Emmons. Most other modern steel guitars are designed and constructed 90% the same. Two that are not are The hybrid Zum and a Fulawka. They have some unique construction qualities about them which is why they sound different.

Reece:

You’re claiming the two guitars you speak of are different from the rest, thereby saying you can consistently identify either of those guitars in a comparison evaluation,.therefore making a public statement that the two guitars you named have a consistent inherent tone unlike all other guitars!

Just to be absolutely clear......Is this what you're saying???????????

Well to me it's obviously "yes".

Kevin:

Whether I could or not has nothing to do with whether a guitar has inherent tone or not.

But I think this is the thing Reece can't grasp - that SOME players can identify differences in SOME guitars - but that if a player CAN'T identify tonal differences in two randomly-chosen guitars it does NOT mean there is a lack of inherent tone. It's a very simple concept - more specific than global.