Gram Parsons

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 8 Sep 2009 12:59 am

Evertime I listen to the two Gram Parsons solo albums, I am amazed how well they are produced and by the quality of the songs and the contributing musicians. I think these recordings are classics.
Compared to his cotemporaries the Eagles the sales were minimal.
His early death made him a kind of a legend in some circles, but I wonder what would have happened, had he lived longer or even to this day?
What do you think? ( posted with great respect for G.P.)

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 8 Sep 2009 5:13 am

I regard Gram Parsons as one of the pioneers in the early so called country rock movement. It was just this folksy twist on some standards and mixed with other song styles that made my ears perk up. This was the first time I had ever heard of some of the contributing musicians and vocalists.

Obviously highly respected and adored by his peers, a veritable who's who roster on his records.

Hard to say what would have happened. I can only assume that he would've still been a major force and would have continued to influence many fans, peers and lovers of good music. The recent tribute Return of the Grevious Angel is testament to that.

Some of this music is still stuck in my head from 35+ years ago.

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 8 Sep 2009 6:46 am

Those two albums have been on heavy rotation for me the past few months. I agree that the arrangements, production and performing are all amazing. I'd read that Gram pretty much gave the musicians free range in the studio to do whatever they thought would sound best. Pretty cool.

Dave Harmonson · Post by **Dave Harmonson** » 8 Sep 2009 8:33 am

Those are two of my all time favorites as well. Glen D. Hardin was responsible for most of the arranging and what I really like is the way he had the players floating around each other in a way not usually heard. Instead of one player doing fills on a verse and another on the chorus there are several cuts where they play what could have been too busy, but somehow they all play and make it work as an ensemble. "Return Of The Grievous Angel" and "Now I'm Still Feeling Blue" are examples of this style. The songs, "She" and "1000 Dollar Wedding" I think are masterpieces.
With James Burton, Hardin, Emmons, Al Perkins, Ronny Tutt, Jerry Scheff, Emory Gordy, Byron Berline and Emmy Lou it's hard to think anything but good music would happen.
It's too bad that Gram's demons had such a hold of him and from what I've heard these two albums almost didn't happen because they couldn't get Gram sober enough to make them. He was finally convinced to do his partying after the sessions.
The issue of "Sleepless Nights" with some tracks that didn't make the cut from those sessions has a few real gems a well.
It's hard to say what influence he would have had if he had lived longer. For being with us only 26 years he definitely made an impact.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 8 Sep 2009 9:54 am

this is relevent to the thread,

http://www.gramparsonspetition.com/

I am playing the show for this:
http://www.myspace.com/myster_jones

If anyone wants to sign or is in Nashville on the 19th stop by and throw tomatoes at me.

The recording of Him and Emmylou Harris with Niel Flanz live on the radio are my favorites. Such smooth steel with all that room to move around.

Dave Harmonson · Post by **Dave Harmonson** » 8 Sep 2009 11:51 am

Here's Sleepless Nights. A beautiful rendition IMHO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEHH7kmI2LU

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 8 Sep 2009 8:12 pm

I loved that stuff, and still do. There was no shortage of talent and vision there - despite all of the tragic flaws. I have a great deal of sympathy with the perspective of people like Chris Hillman, who had to work around Gram's erratic behavior. But there was some serious magic going on in that music and I was touched by it back when I was starting to play seriously. I'm becoming a regular visitor to Joshua Tree Park, and I never fail to stop at Cap Rock and pay my respects to Gram. And to reflect on Gram's stupid and tragic end and his failure to deliver on all the promise that shows in his best work.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 9 Sep 2009 9:55 am

Because I started this thread, I feel that I have the responsibility to say, that noone has yet responded to the actual question:
What would have happened had he lived longer?
In my opinion with the right attitude, right promotion and the same band, he would have been very succesful. At least similar to Emmylou Harris's popularity only a few years later.
Thanks.

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 9 Sep 2009 11:12 am

I agree that had things turned out differently Gram could have been very successful. He could be very charismatic and charming, by all reports, and the music was certainly there. Part of the market that Emmylou captivated were fans of Gram's work. Certainly that was so with me. It was never going to happen though if he continued his path of substance abuse and erratic behavior - he was just too unreliable and seemed to lack the kind of work ethic that commercial success demands.

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 9 Sep 2009 11:19 am

In my opinion with the right attitude, right promotion and the same band, he would have been very sucesful. At least similar to Emmylou Harris's popularity only a few years later.

I wasn't going to comment but since you clearly want other opinions, I will respectfully disagree that this was likely to have happened (though of course there is no way to ever know...)

To me there are a couple of major differences:

For one, whether one likes her music or not (I happen to love most of it) Emmylou is an undeniably good singer technically with a classically "pretty" voice . For all his contributions it would be hard to argue that about Parsons; he might have been soulful, he might have had a vision, but he was only a marginally decent singer by most standards; there are plenty of notes on his various albums that are painfully out-of tune. I know lots of people who are big fans of his that will accept that much. Not to say that people haven't had big success without good singing technique or a good voice but it helps...

Secondly, when Emmylou's first Warner Brothers album came out her label very shrewdly "worked" her record to both country stations, where she had almost immediate success, and to FM rock stations (where they could use Gram's underground reputation to establish her "hip" credibility). Her career solo got off the ground in both camps very quickly. I used to see her play around locally in small bars in Washington D.C. at the time and followed her early career really closely, it was a local story to some of us; I started playing just after that in some of those same clubs...

By the time Gram Parsons died he was pretty much a known quantity in the business, having been on three labels already (four counting the "International Submarine Band") and gotten a fair amount of promotion and publicity. It's doubtful if any of those labels tried very hard in the country market but in any case after five years on major labels and many albums he never got close to substantial country radio airplay, and I don't see any reason to think that would necessarily change.

FWIW I'm one of many that got interested in steel because of "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" and a few other albums of that time. I also think that duet version of "Sleepless Nights" posted above is a classic, so don't get me wrong; I do appreciate what Gram contributed. I just doubt that at that point he was destined for "stardom" if he had lived. It would have been interesting to see what he came up with though...

Just my two cents of course, but you asked!

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 9 Sep 2009 1:04 pm

Joachim Kettner wrote:Because I started this thread, I feel that I have the responsibility to say, that noone has yet responded to the actual question:
What would have happened had he lived longer?

Jerry Overstreet wrote: Hard to say what would have happened. I can only assume that he would've still been a major force and would have continued to influence many fans, peers and lovers of good music.
What kind of response were you expecting? I thought I addressed your question as well as possible. As did Dave Harmonson. Noone knows. He may have become an even worse incurable drug addict and fell to the streets or he may have kicked the habit and continued to make good music. Pure speculation.
What direction that music would've taken is anybody's guess.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Sep 2009 1:08 pm

Gram was such a big influence on me that I didn't really want to say this either, but I completely agree with what Pete says. Of course, we'll never really know.

There was a quote from Emmylou fairly recently that wondered aloud - paraphrasing - for all the talk about how influential he was, why don't we hear more of him? I think his influence on musicians and others real close to the music scene was enormous, but he never really made all that much traction with the general public. Their loss, IMHO, but that's the way I see it.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 9 Sep 2009 10:11 pm

Jerry, I am sorry for what I have said in my last post. Your's and the all the other's responses were very accurate and sensitive, and the best replies one could give to my dumb question. I hope you all accept my apologies.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 9 Sep 2009 10:30 pm

Joachim Kettner wrote:Jerry, I am sorry for what I have said in my last post. Your's and the all the other's responses were very accurate and sensitive, and the best replies one could give to my dumb question. I hope you all accept my apologies.

this reminded me I forgot to actually answer your question! sorry about that!

I think he would have gone on to sell songs to other singers and matched the success of Kris Kristofferson myself. Hopefully he would have moved on from self abuse and focused more on his art. I think he was best when in harmony with another singer like Hillman or Harris from a performer point of view, but I feel like he wrote great songs and that would have developed had he survived.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 10 Sep 2009 3:31 am

Nothing wrong with the question Joachim. I often have similar wonderings about others entertainers. I think it's because we were their fans and miss their music so much we can't help speculating about what might have been.

No worries here.....kindest regards....

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 10 Sep 2009 3:33 am

I agree with Pete Finney. Vocally he was a marginal talent. Most all of his material lacked good commercial arrangement, and he never wanted to play by the rules. Not a formula for success. Parsons was a catalyst, and because of that, an influence.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 10 Sep 2009 3:55 am

I was forunate to see the Burritos play live with Graham. He had a nice stage presence and the band was "dressed to the hilt" (and great) but somehow I didn't leave the show feeling knocked out like I saw anything special. It actually seemed like they weren't very serious... maybe they were really stoned... who knows.

I feel that if he was alive today, he would have been a great songwriter. And that is because, although he was a rich kid, he was still a tortured soul and I believe it helps when you write music from a tortured heart. They say "You can't sing the blues wearing handmade shoes" but I don't believe that's always true.

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 10 Sep 2009 5:12 am

Weren't a lot of the great tunes we know as GP tunes co written with another artist? Hickory Wind, Ooh Las Vegas, Christine's tune (Devil in Disguise), In My Hour of Darkness, Grievous Angel, Hot Burrito' s #1 and #2? The others never seem to get the recognition.

Sweetheart and GP, ISB and FBB also had a huge impact on me too but I don't think he would have been as huge if he didn't do the glorified drug over-dose thing at a young age. It creates an unsolved mystery that seems to draw people in. I get annoyed by the number of bands here in Ca that try to copy him. Still I seem to play one or two GP tribute gigs a year!

A drummer I play with saw the Byrds Sweetheart line up live in LA and he said everyone in the crowd was saying "Who's that guy on heroin sleeping behind the piano?" It was Gram! It didn't have the impact then as it seems to have now. The album is real good though.

Just my 2 cents, I wasn't there for any of it......
dz

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Sep 2009 3:22 pm

Like Pete and Kevin, I never really "got it" as to what all the fuss was about with most of the '70s country rock groups. Gram was okay as a writer, but really marginal as a singer. Pete was cool, but everything else was pretty ragged. I also didn't care for anything but the steel in the "Sweethearts of the Rodeo" disc. The Byrds, it seemed to me, were purposely trying to sound bad, almost as a parody of what they thought country music was about. (They sounded like a bunch of drunk college kids after a beer bash.) I've heard junior high rock groups with better harmonies.

No disrespect to anyone who was turned on by their sounds, 'cause I know there's a lot of you out there. But in my early years, I had heard a hundred better groups in gin mills up and down the east coast. I think that the main reason a lot of the former rock fans were really turned on by this stuff was that they were just never exposed to anything better. I was luckier.

Many songwriters who have a talent for writing would do well to leave singing to those who have a talent for singing.

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 10 Sep 2009 4:33 pm

Reminds me of what Kesey used to say about the bus.

The Byrds, Parsons, FBB, NRPS and on and on were blowing minds on an international level, whatever you might think about their musical skills. There was a sound and an attitude and a spirit that changed the way a lot of people felt about, among other things, country music.

Some of the guys playing gin joints might have been able to play circles around some of the west coast country-rockers (a lot of great players worked the gin joints and to a lesser extent no doubt still do) but playing gin joints is playing gin joints. Playing a Festival Express (like NRPS and FBB did), for example, is a whole different thing. People who did things like that are remembered and spoken of almost forty years on. Are there people who might have been able to play better on the gig? There always are. But so what?

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 11 Sep 2009 6:11 am

OK,I think it is better to continue with the opinions about Gram's music, than to speculate what might have been.

The first Flying Burrito Brothers album, was very well produced and featured a very competent bass player in the person of Chris Ethridge and keyboards. I'm not sure if he ever played on stage with them ( maybe somebody here knows?) and the keyboard player was missing in their stage act too in my opinion. If they only could have brought this sound to the stage!

But I'm not sure about what Pete Finney and Kevin Hatton said aout G.P. being only a marginally decent singer. I recently asked a friend, who sings his songs quite well ( In the original keys ), he's a good singer, and he said that there are some very high notes that are not so easy to perform as a vocalist.

There are also stories about the sidemen performing on the two solo albums, that they gave more than just their usual session time, because they thought he was
so good.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 12 Sep 2009 9:01 am

It really irritates me, that after D. Hinson's and my last post noone chimed in, to say anything in defense of Gram Parsons' voice and his achievements for Country Music. He was defintely not into Country Rock, like the Eagles ( he hated them ) or Poco. When he touched other genres it was either R&B ( Cry on more time ), Rock'n'Roll ( Big mouth blues ) or something entirely his own. Not much of Country Rock here! That's all

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 12 Sep 2009 9:10 am

all a matter of taste really, the guitar player in one of my bands thinks he is the best thing to ever happen to music, loves his singing and speaking voice. Personally I like him in duets but didnt care for his solo voice. If it wasnt for the steel I wouldnt listen to it.

That said, As I mentioned in my first post I am pushing for his induction into the Country Music Hall of Fame to the point of traveling to Nashville to play the show for the petition drive.

I think he brought a lot of people into country that felt like they didnt belong to the old guard, thereby helping country grow to what it was in the 70's.

I think if he didnt die he would have pushed more country and less rock as he went. That seemed to be where he was going.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 Sep 2009 1:48 pm

In other words, Gram Parsons's music is not as bad as it sounds.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 12 Sep 2009 2:12 pm

He had a pretty cool Nudie suit. At least that is in the Country Music Hall of Fame: