D# to C# lower

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 2 Sep 2009 7:08 pm

I havn't been playing a very long time, but I am progressing pretty well. I understand what my levers to raise and lower my E's do, and i also can find several uses for my F# to G# lever. I even have some good uses for lowering my D# half way to D, but I need some advice on how to use the lower all the way to c#.

Also, why and when was this change added, and who added it?

I would like to find some uses for this change beyond the half stop. I don't need another lever to just hang there for decoration like my c6 levers are doing right now... $:\$

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Sep 2009 12:20 am

Zach.. you are not alone. I have been playing 33 years and still have no real use for that C# on a lever when I have it on the first pedal.. The D is a different story, I use it constantly.

That double flat change has been around a long time. Not sure of the history. I do know however there were a lot of older guitars that only pulled that 2nd string down a half tone,and I doubt the double flat is an "original" pull. I could be wrong but it may have been thought of somewhat later and became standard after some time.

Personally, I tune my second string to E, drop it to Eb and then to D on the 2 step lever. Just never used the C# on that second string, but I'll bet most guys do. It sure never worked for me. bob

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 3 Sep 2009 5:21 am

Thanks Bob for the reply. I knew it had been around since at least the early 80s, because my dad had it on his set up.

I use the D lower on the second string for some fast three string roll licks all the time, but I'm still trying to figure out the C# change.

Anyone have it figured out? I'm going to keep dragging this post out till I get answers...

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 3 Sep 2009 5:41 am

Here's a cool classic intro thing using the full lower-

Key of C, going from the I to the V7, release the 2nd string lower and the A pedal slowly.

Also, if you think of the 2nd string as being the major 3rd note of the 5th string, the full lower does the same thing as the A pedal pump in the A+B position. It's helpful when using the 2nd and 5th string as the V chord of the no-pedals I chord.

edited the tab slightly...

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 3 Sep 2009 6:07 am

Nathan, That's the "Touch My Heart" intro, the Ray Price version, right?

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 3 Sep 2009 6:29 am

Indeed it is. The main concept of starting out with two strings playing the same note and moving them in different directions is the fun part. It's the kind of lick you can use in a lot of things, like most of those great Ray Price intros & turnarounds.

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 3 Sep 2009 7:16 am

It gives you a pentatonic scale across the the strings, and other pentatonics when combined with B-A#, E-D#, and the B pedal (G#-A) in some other combinations and frets.

I find that to be very useful.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Sep 2009 7:34 am

With A&B down, the unison lick the lever gives is quite useful. To hear it in action, listen to Weldon's intro and ride on Connie Smith's song "I Can't Remember".

I also use the lever-technique of playing a roll with this (2/5) unison, and it sounds far more impressive than what's actually being done.

I'm always for anything that sounds impressive, but is easy to execute.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 3 Sep 2009 8:20 am

Like Donny, I use the double flat on the 2nd string to "thicken up" a chord with A and B down.

The double flat also lets you get a 6th chord with *both* the 5th and 6th notes present. I use my ring finger for this. A nice inversion is:

String Scale tone
2 6th
4 1(tonic)
5 5th
6 3rd

Chris

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 3 Sep 2009 8:38 am

Speaking of doubling up with the 5th string A pedal, it's nice with the A+F combo too.

Chuck Thompson · Post by **Chuck Thompson** » 3 Sep 2009 9:05 am

Hi Zach, here are a couple of steel players using the 2nd string whole step drop. The first is arnett mills. He uses it the first time at about 1:23. The other vid is mickey adams using it and teaching it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuERn30UTr8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfCcqyF0 ... annel_page

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 3 Sep 2009 9:05 am

Donny Hinson wrote: I'm always for anything that sounds impressive, but is easy to execute.

Me Too

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 3 Sep 2009 9:29 am

Sounds like I have plenty to keep me busy tonight. The Mickey Adams video shows me how to use that unison lick pretty well. The other uses for it I'll work on too and see how I can find it useful.

Thanks guys.

Now What about the 9 string lower?

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 3 Sep 2009 10:00 am

Zach,

If you don’t have any trouble hitting the ½ step to D when you need it, you may as well leave the full step lower until you have a chance to experiment with some of the ideas above and see if it’s something you like or not.

Though I can certainly appreciate that many fine players use it and can take advantage of the additional cool sounding options it offers, my opinion is more aligned with Bob C on this point.
I did experiment with having the full step to C# lower for a while, but I never got comfortable with being able to execute hitting the ½ stop “D” perfectly. And since I consider the “D” note more important for me, I only have the ½ step to D on my guitars now. Perhaps in time I would have got used to the full step lower and glad I had it, but it just didn’t seem worth it for me. Perhaps my opinion should be “qualified” though, as I don’t usually play much traditional country music.

Marc

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 3 Sep 2009 1:43 pm

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm not going to take the change off the guitar, I just want to learn to use it. As a matter of fact, once I get to know everything I'll probably add a LKV and a 4th pedal to do something. I've got a 9 & 6 guitar, but right now 6 pedals are set up on C6. I'm really just a beginner, I only started playing at the end of last year, so I'm still learning to use what I have, and I'll stick with what I have until I'm proficient with it.

9th string advice anyone?

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 3 Sep 2009 3:07 pm

Greg Cutshaw has some nice stuff for using/lowering the 9th string on his website. For a few months I switched my 9th string to C# (with a raise to D on my RKR) to get used to using the low C#. It opens up some cool runs on the low strings.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 3 Sep 2009 3:28 pm

It's getting to where the only time I use it is when my E's are lowered. It's a very handy scale tone in that position, whether you're playing western swing (at IV fret) or pentatonic blues licks (at the V# fret).

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 3 Sep 2009 5:24 pm

So I guess the 2nd string is more useable for some cool licks and chords, whereas the low 9 is more useable for scale runs and sometimes maybe a color note for a chord. I'll work on it and see what happens. I'll get this thing whipped yet.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Sep 2009 6:22 am

It is also the VI of the E chord,
so gives you a root for a relative minor7
C# E G# B

I lower D 9 to C# at the same time for this.
But I am not typical.

And it is sweet with E's lowered as Bobby says.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 4 Sep 2009 8:27 am

Right. I use the 9th string lower for the m7 or rootless maj9. If you use 4 picks, check out these 1-6-2m-5-1 positions in F:
[tab]F#_____________________________________________
D#_____________________________________________
G#_____________________________________________
E _____________________________________________
B _____8______7_____6_____5_____3RR____________
G#_____8______7_____6_____5_____3R_____________
F#______________________________3______________
E _____8______7R____6_____5R___________________
D _____8L_____7_____6L____5_____3______________
B _____________________________________________
Fmaj9 D7b9 Gm7 C7b9 Fmaj7 [/tab]
L means lower, R means raise

My earlier comment was about the 2nd string lower.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Sep 2009 8:58 am

Right, and it allows a more Western Swing
and/or ethereal jazzy thing too.

Zach Keele · Post by **Zach Keele** » 4 Sep 2009 9:34 am

I tried some of this stuff out last night when I got off work. I really like the unison lick. I can find MANY uses for it, and it is something I had been hearing a lot but didn't know what was going on. Thanks for that.

I mainly just messed with it last night, but tonight I'll try out some of the stuff Bob and David mentioned.

These are the most helpful type of threads for me. Tab, pictures, and videos are ok, but if someone just tells me what to do, I can figure it out. I'm that kind of learner. Thanks to all.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 7 Sep 2009 9:40 pm

I too struggled with the 2 and 9 lower. Half stops can be tricky! I removed the 9 lower and set 2 to just lower a half to the dominant 7 for a while. I returned to the 2 and 9 half/whole lower again when I discovered the 2nd whole tone lower unison thing. Bobbe had a lesson using BC 345 and 9 then 345 no pedals with 9 lowered for some real cool jazz chord patterns too.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 7 Sep 2009 10:47 pm

I forgot to add I tune 2 to D and not D#
I prefer the dom 7 most of the time,
but raise to D# and or E when needed.

IF you try a D with the normal set up you can easily do a C# lower,
and see how you like it.

Some times I also Lower 9 to C# and then raise it when I like.
Depends on tune or mood.

The Steel Guitar Forum

D# to C# lower

D# to C# lower

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Thanks

9th string?

Re: 9th string lower

Thanks

Thanks