Robert Randolph

[CrowBear Schmitt]

good thing Robert is'nt a member here
he's havin' a much better time gettin' down w: his bros & friends & smilin' on the way to the bank

many of us here are old coots who aren't tolerant to what younger generations are comin' up with in the way of Musik
we're old hat & they're now & the the future like it or not

you go Robert !

[Chris LeDrew]

Well said, CrowBear!

[Bill Duncan]

Happening, here and now, making lots of money, the future.

That may be, but that doesn't make it good. Nor does it mean that myself or anyone else has to like it.

I hope anyone who finds a niche and is able to extract a good living from their musical tallents keeps doing it, and makes more money.

But, I still do not have to like it, or listen to it! I can also conclude it to be noise.

Escargot may be a delicacy to some folks, but to me it's snails, and that's not food. That's nasty.

[Joachim Kettner]

David Dogget, please get over this noise comment and please do not leave the Forum. I've always liked your posts.

[Ben Jones]

Just to be clear, the main thing I am objecting to here is the logical leap from one word, "noise", to the conclusion that any person who uses it to describe someone's music is "insulting, intolerant and ethnocentric".

"Noise" in this context is insulting and certainly intolerant. If someone called your music noise you would not be insulted? honestly now, be real. someone called your music noise youd'd have no problem with that?

That said , I think it behooves us as musicians to develop a thick skin and realize that the public is going to judge things without having a great deal of knowledge or experience with them and that these judgements are valid in their own way, but as an artists we weigh them accordingly. Art, music , food is meant for public comnsumption. The publics opinion of it, learned or not, is VERY important criticism. As an artist or musician i realize this is how people talk, how people react to art and music, and I can take that very harsh and insulting criticism. i can not only take that kind of criticism , I can use it to better my work, but what i dont do is let it insult me or discourage me or bum me out. It is what it is.

Its far far worse in the visual arts. People will look at a painting and declare that their two year old could do better, etc. They will get furious at a minimalist sculpture and actually want to "beat up" the artist...haha. But when artists start to separate themselves form the public and begin to consider themselves above public critique, it becomes a very bad situation for everybody, artists, the art, the public. Do you remember the National Endowment for the Arts? I feel strongly that it was the elitist and separatist attitude of the artists during that era were a major factor in its demise. The public didnt come to its support, quite the opposite. Artists were seen as pretensious, purposely confrontational and snobbish by the public and they were more than happy to withdraw their funding. rightly so

long way of saying, as a musician, you need a thick skin and an understanding that the public is not always going to be nice or even tactful with their critique.

[Dennis Graves]

"I really enjoyed living in Knoxville for a few years in the '70s. But I must say, one of the things I don't miss is the trash".

These are your words David Doggett. Would you care to elaborate? Sounds to me as though you were referring to Rick and other residents.

Dennis Graves

[b0b]

So b0b, if Joe Blow has a post “Hey guys, listen to this clip of me playing Precious Memories;” and I join the thread with the word “Noise” in extra-large type; that’s acceptable Forum behavior?!

Or suppose somebody start’s a post, “Listen to this YouTube of Buddy Emmons playing Way to Survive;” and I post “Noise” in extra-large type; that’s acceptable?!

If the music contains distortion or some other noisy effect, then "noise" is a descriptive term. Even if it doesn't, some people regard certain timbres and even musical styles as noise. It's a common word, used casually quite often. For example: to me, it doesn't matter how well a banjo is played - it always sounds like noise to my ears.

And if in either of these cases somebody objects, and calls my remark “insulting,” the moderator is going to come on the thread an defend my “Noise” comment and criticize the ones who object that it is insulting?!

With all due respect, b0b, maybe your friendly banter with Ms. Lee using this term has dulled your sensitivity to the usual implication of this kind of remark between strangers on a public Forum.

How can you accuse a stranger of being "ethnocentric" based on the word "noise"?

I don’t think anyone would accuse me of being at a loss for words, but try as I may, I cannot think of any word more insulting to a musician than to call his sincere efforts at music “noise.” It is the opposite of music. It is the ultimate insult.

Furthermore, denying that music of another ethnic group is even really music is precisely “intolerant” and “ethnocentric.” I’m baffled about what you must think these terms mean.

I do know some history of Rick’s comments on the Forum. And possibly that gave some added impetus to my response. But I would have responded about the same way to anyone making that remark that way.

I'm sorry, but that's a real stretch. Nothing in a one-word critique implies anything about ethnic groups. You are the one who brought that subject into this discussion. Perhaps you felt that it was "the elephant in the room" that needed to be acknowledged. But was the elephant really there?

I’m now beginning to feel a little bad for poor Rick, who quickly apologized for his choice of words and dropped the issue. So Rick this is no longer about you. But unfortunately your remark has become the example that is now the bone of contention.

b0b, I am deeply troubled by this development. For a long time it has seemed to me that posts initiating offensive insults are sometimes ignored by some moderators (haven’t really paid attention to who they are), and the moderator only steps in when vigorous responses to the initial insults occur. It seems okay to post an insult, but not to call it an insult. I just assumed that was unconscious oversight and understandable lack of attention. I am now very surprised to discover this may be an intentional policy. This is very troubling, and frankly, to me seems shockingly out of character for you. Of course everyone should be free to express their opinions, likes and dislikes. It is the manner in which that is done, and the acceptance of that manner that is troubling. I truly no longer know where the line is drawn in terms of what is a prohibited personal attack, and what is acceptable personal opinion.

The bottom line is that I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't received an emailed complaint. With thousands of members to watch, I have a very short memory of any specific person's posting history. I saw a negative review of a RR concert starting this topic, a one word response supporting that reviewer's negative review, and then a sudden diatribe about ethnic intolerance. Which would you consider to be a personal attack?

[Joe Miraglia]

Escargot may be a delicacy to some folks, but to me it's snails, and that's not food. That's nasty.

And I don't like Hominy Grits--like eating wall paper paste Joe

[Jim Peters]

Calling my music noise would be one of the ultimate insults. Saying you don't like it would maybe hurt my feelings a little, but not insult me. There is no racism expressed or implied in that insult(noise). JP

[Steve Hinson]

And I don't like Hominy Grits--like eating wall paper paste Joe

...now you've gone too far...

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Bill D, i don't like escargots & froglegs one bit
but if you'll have me over fer some BBQ pork, i'll bring over some fine wine

for the record, i prefer the sacred steel tradition like aubrey ghent, the campbell bros, del ray grace, bishop hall over robert
but heck you gotta hand it to that young man, he draws quite a crowd & he's got that psg up front
& i ain't tellin' nobody to like what i like

David D, i don't wanna see you leave this forum, you're too good a guy to lose on account of differences of opinions & hampering misunderstandings
have mercy !

[b0b]

Let's remember that the music being reviewed is Robert Randolph's renditions of very old rock'n'roll standards like Bo Diddley and Shake Your Hips. Old coots like me have been calling this music "noise" ever since it was invented. I've never known a rock'n'roll musician who was insulted by that.

[Ben Jones]

depends on the context. yes there is an entire genre of music called "noise". There is a "Noisefest". There are splinter genres such as "avant noise". Im not a biblical scholar but i seem to recall some reference to "making a joyful noise" or somerthing like that? maybe I got that one wrong , sorry. sometimes rockers will describe their own music as noise. There are musicians who embrace "noise" as a descriptor. One of my very favorite record labels is in fact called "Noise: Amrep Records."


none of that is what we are talking about here tho is it?

I didnt see Dave make any mention of leaving the forum. maybe I missed that, but I think Dave's a pretty smart and mature fellow and understands sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. I'd certainly miss his postings also.

On the bright side this is music, not politics where our differing opinions often have real world percussions. at the end of the dicsussion we should all be able to sit down and have a laugh and a bevy..its not life or death stuff here.

[James Mayer]

I reacted in a similar fashion (to DD) in a separate thread where I read a post that firmly placed all music that doesn't employ sheet music in the illiterate dumb*ss category that is beneath real music. David corrected my accusations of racism and pointed out that I should be using the term "ethno-centric".

Is it possible that DD being overly upset has more to do with the general "better than thou because I play real music (which is invariably white music)" message that frequently pops up on the SGF. I've read plenty of posts from crusty good-ol-boys dismissing anything that isn't in their comfort zone. The word "noise" was just a catalyst. DD has more than pointed out that the issue is bigger than this thread.

I post clips here every now and then to get some feedback. Take a look at Chris Ivey's post in THIS thread. I welcome negative feedback and people should be able to express their opinions. I didn't react to this particular post. However, I'm more likely to jump to the defense of whole genres of music that get the same treatment.

In short, I've perceive this to be a very "ethnocentric" forum when compared to the other forums that I frequent.

[Joe Miraglia]

And I don't like Hominy Grits--like eating wall paper paste Joe

...now you've gone too far...

... Ok,Steve, next time you,re in Western New York how does a spaghetti dinner sound? Joe

www.willowcreekband.com

[Steve Hinson]

And I don't like Hominy Grits--like eating wall paper paste Joe

...now you've gone too far...

... Ok,Steve, next time you,re in Western New York how does a spaghetti dinner sound? Joe

www.willowcreekband.com

GREAT!!!

[Kevin Hatton]

All of a sudden we have Social Engineers and Psychologists on the Forum judging people who play country music on the steel guitar. Whose hating now? It never fails. The hate Forum is down the hall boys. Go judge yourselves. All music is Ethnocentric and cultural in some way. Duhhh! We don't apologize here for liking WATEVER music we choose. This Forum is open to everyone. Which it why it has civility rules.

[Bob Simons]

I've participated in this fuss earlier on, and I don't know what is about anymore!

It is simple- this forum is composed, (by happenstance or design, I don't know which) of staunch, life-long fans of a certain narrow spectrum of Nashville Country Music with some of its components like Hawaiian, Western Swing, and jazz sprinkled in. THe same is true of Scotty's Convention.

Both are simply misnamed in terms of musical genre and emphasis, and thereby may be misdirecting some participants. It should maybe be the "Traditional C&W Steel Guitar Forum", perhaps.

I've been guilty in the past of believing there was a racist element to the issue. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it is simply a "narrow-minded" issue.

I listen to mostly African Music and classical guitar, by choice. But I love to sit around and play along with Loretta, Hank Williams, and the like. So? THis forum is how I learn of much that I know and much that is great to know about the steel guitar. I'd just like to see more support, interest and information here concerning the wider and newer applications of steel guitar.

[Michael Lee Allen]

This thread should be split in two, the original and actual "discussion" thread and a simple "Poll" thread for the one word posters...Choice of...
A...I like Robert Randolph's music
B...I don't like Randolph's music
C...I like some of Robert Randolph's music
If you just post that you don't like it why bother? Post another sentence or two explaining WHY you don't like it. How hard is that?
MLA

[Bobby Burns]

I agree. This thread should be split. The original thread had to do with a guy who plays the steel guitar. If I were him I would be insulted by all the race issues. I am embarrassed by them myself. We should be discussing his musical achievements, his popularity, whether we like his music or not, and such. All this other crap belongs in a different thread, if it belongs on this forum at all.

[David Doggett]

Kevin, thanks for pointing out that I was being “harmonized scale challenged” on Stand By Me (click here). I hadn’t realized I was sticking so much to one position until you pointed it out. Fortunately I don’t play everything that way. Click on the CD Baby link at the bottom of my post and listen to the sample of I Heard It on the Radio. You can hear me doing some sliding around on a cycle of fifths bridge. It doesn’t show up in the short sample, but on the intro and my ride on that song I do an octave gliss. And thanks for keeping my financial interests in mind with your suggestion for a Two Fret Steel Guitar Course. I gotta get right on that – might pay for my kids’ college, and my retirement. So kind of you to offer such helpful suggestions to someone you seem to want kicked off the Forum.

[b0b]

Apparently we all missed a stellar performance by Robert Randolph with the Dave Matthews Band in San Francisco last weekend. Click here.

[David Doggett]

The rumors of my dissappearance are greatly exaggerated. I ain't goin' nowhere. And I'm gonna try real hard to clamp down on my tongue and not get kicked off. I've been trying literally for years now to spend less time here. But alas, it's an addicts promise. I can't seem to keep it.

Some people complain I am too long winded. So in an attempt to ameliorate that problem, I'm breaking up the next few comments into separate posts. You can scan the Subject line to see if it's worth your time.

[David Doggett]

Well, from the definitions it looks like noise can be any sound that is loud, which if you turn your stereo player up enough could apply to Bach or Buddy Emmons. And since we are all in control of our YouTube volume, if we cut RR down far enough it should stop being noise for anyone. Although, I guess some of you would have to cut the sound entirely. But there’s also the noise of the snow falling – so there’s got to be more to it than just volume. Some degree of unpleasantness is associated with many of the definitions, which I guess takes care of the typical use here on the Forum. But then there is the Biblical reference to making “a joyful noise.” So I don’t know where that leaves us.

The only definition that relates to music is this one:

2.noise - the auditory experience of sound that lacks musical quality

I take that to mean it lacks the quality of music, i.e., it’s unmusical. Thus, my interpretation of the term “noise” used in musical criticism is “the opposite of music.” But some may think “lacks musical quality” means music of low quality.

So, if it’s not meant to be insulting, then I guess none of you would be insulted if someone said your performance “lacks musical quality,” or is “low quality.”

Then I looked at the definitions of “music” and came up with this one:

5.music - punishment for one's actions; "you have to face the music"

So putting it all together, calling someone’s musical performance “noise” is not insulting to some people; but, being music, it could be punishment.

Okay, well, I’m glad we’re getting these definitions all cleared up.

[David Doggett]

Well, now that I have been corrected; and it turns out it’s not really insulting to RR to call his music “Noise,” but is really just expressing ones feelings in a friendly and Forum kosher way, it appears I overreacted, and it was not really “insulting, intolerant, ethnocentric,” or “ignorant hostility,” or the reflection of a “small, hate-filled mind.” Man, was I out of line. It’s really just the way we do things here in the brotherhood of the Forum. If anybody sees RR before I do, please explain this to him so he can understand this the way I do now. I’m sure he’ll feel great about it and come running to join the Forum and share the fun and brotherly companionship we all enjoy here.

And now I feel bad about thinking my old college president was bigoted toward country music for calling it “noise.” I guess he was not being intolerant and derogatory; he was just expressing his feelings. Now I feel kind of bad about driving by his house late at night with straight pipes.

But seriously folks, I do owe an apology. I don’t know the poster’s real intentions for the “Noise” post. It had the appearance to me of being “insulting, intolerant, ethnocentric…ignorant hostility”… the reflection of a “small, hate-filled mind.” I stand by my belief that it has that appearance, and I myself would be ashamed to project such an appearance. But I don’t know that the poster is actually any of those things. So I apologize for implying he is.

Seriously, Rick, I'm sure you're good Knoxville folk. I apologize.