Ever notice there are no BAD pedal steels?

[James Mayer]

Ok, ok, It was an open-minded post. I was the first to suggest it was possibly because they come from small hand-made shops as a possible answer.

I HAVE read some reviews of lemons, but they do seem pretty rare and are usually revolving around purchasing used off of eBay (no one's feelings are hurt?). This is really about all the "new steel, check it out" posts. Honestly, if I was looking for a standard S10, there have been so many posts that claim loooooong sustain and "great tone and feel" that I would have a hard time differentiating between the builders.

I'm NOT suggesting bashing any builders. I'm just wondering if they ever wonder how they can possibly set themselves apart from the crowd. Features is one way, (dual pickups, anyone?) but most "new steel" posts involve a quick standard run-down of the positives and then devolve into a discussion of cosmetics. Why no discussion of aspects that are not universally negative but more a matter of preference? Like, "the car drives great, but if you are not used to a long clutch and loose steering, it'll take some getting used to".

I'm not complaining, just finding it all very interesting.

[James Mayer]

James, There is a guy here in Portland that bought an Emmons LeGrande off E-Bay for some 2 grand-ish price, and it is claimed to be a "lemon".
So there at least one Pro instrument in our town that aint cuttin' it.
I think if you search the Forum for the word "problem" you will find tons of problems with Pro level steels of most every brand.
Ask Buddy Cage about problems with his pro level steels and stand back!
With that said, I love living in the same town as my Steel Manufacturer!

Sierra? Are there any other builders around PDX?

[Pete Burak]

...Like, "the car drives great, but if you are not used to a long clutch and loose steering, it'll take some getting used to".

Hey Man you just described the Emmons Push-Pull to a tee.

[James Mayer]

I just did a quick rundown my handmade instruments and it reminded me that most of my instrument complaints revolve around ones made in a factory.

My Jerry Jones baritone guitar is an amazing instrument. The action was set so low, out of the box, that there was excessive buzzing. Easy fix, nothing more to complain about.

My handmade Postigo flamenco guitar is also near-perfect but has one curious characteristic that my other two flamenco guitars don't share. Strings go dead in about half the playing time on the Postigo. Maybe the others were never as sensitive to the sound of new strings because they just aren't built as well.

My three Fouke Industrial steels are pretty much all around great instruments. I guess I've never been able to say much bad about them.

My oud was handmade in Turkey and is in bad need of either fine-tuners or the newer in-line geared cello tuners. Ever try to keep an extremely lightweight instrument with 11 strings/pegs in tune? I barely ever play this one because it takes 20-30 minutes to tune, no joke.

[Pete Burak]

Every Pedal Steel ever built is essentially "Handmade".

[Dave Mudgett]

I HAVE read some reviews of lemons, but they do seem pretty rare and are usually revolving around purchasing used off of eBay (no one's feelings are hurt?).

Um - I don't know for sure, but I would bet that this has more to do with really getting a lemon on a used pedal steel from someone off ebay who knows nothing about pedal steels.

Aside from the very few big steel guitar dealers, I would say that this forum is the main market for used pedal steels. Anybody passing off a poorly described but messed up pedal steel as a good one here is likely to be roasted alive. There have been a couple of doozies here, but I think they're rare.

This is really about all the "new steel, check it out" posts. Honestly, if I was looking for a standard S10, there have been so many posts that claim loooooong sustain and "great tone and feel" that I would have a hard time differentiating between the builders.

First, this occurs on the big guitar forums also. "L@@@@@K man - I just got this rad new Chinese Telecaster copy - it's the schiznitz!!!!!" Lots of people love to extoll how smart they are about what they just got - it goes to anything, cars, lawnmowers, whatever.

Second, I don't necessarily find other peoples' reviews all that illuminating. I hear this and that, but when I sit behind a few actual examples, they are often different than I would infer from the reviews. This also isn't anything special about pedal steel - it's inherent in any review process, and has much more to do with the reviewer's POV relative to mine.

Third, if you're looking for a ton of differentiation, I don't think there's all that much between modern brands of steel guitar. With very few exceptions (push-pull reissues, Zum Hybrid, and perhaps a few others), they're modern all-pull mechanisms. There are some "feature" differences - keyed vs. keyless, lacquer vs. mica, body materials and weight, and the details of changer/pullrod/bellcrank implementation are a bit different. But even with this said, I find most of them fairly similar. There's nothing remotely like the diversity in, let's say, electric 6-string guitars. I think this has a lot to do with the (IMHO) fact that most pedal steel players are looking for a fairly similar type of sound and feel - clean tone with fairly long sustain and fairly easy pulls with a lot of flexibility in the copedent.

[Georg Sørtun]

I'm NOT suggesting bashing any builders. I'm just wondering if they ever wonder how they can possibly set themselves apart from the crowd.

Well, they could develop PSGs that allow Just Intonation for all possible open/pedal combinations, and that didn't have any bodydrop for us to counter. That would really set them apart.

Any takers out there in steel-builder land?

[Joe Smith]

Talk about a piece of junk!!! I got this new----- WHATS THAT HONEY? OK Wife is calling, got to run.

[Pete Burak]

I always make sure there is some "return" clause.
If it's "all sales are final" I prefer to try before I buy.
Nobody should ever feel they got ripped off.

James, what brand/model of Pedal Steel do you have?

[Earnest Bovine]

they could develop PSGs that allow Just Intonation for all possible open/pedal combinations,

By definition, Just Intonation does not make all intervals Just. You decide which ones will be Just (beatless). The other intervals will not be usable.
Ergo the steel guitars of today are be as just as any theoretical instrument. Actually steel guitar is better than most in this regard because it is so easy to move the bar to find the required just interval.

(Sorry for hijacking this thread.)

[Georg Sørtun]

By definition, Just Intonation does not make all intervals Just.

You're 100% correct - as it is with all intervals fixed to whatever tuning one chooses.

However, Just Intonation in any key can be achieved by modifying pitch slightly for one or more of 4 notes in the 12 tone scale. Not really a problem to modify pitch/intervals depending on key in better synths, but PSGs are of course a different matter.

Most PGS can take, or are delivered with, some interval-modifications - compensators, which do allow us to tune most, but not all, intervals Just as we push pedals/levers. Many of us use those to good effect, making most intervals usable/playable and sounding good in any key.

I know the remaining intervals are difficult to pitch/compensate in tune in a PSG. I also know it can be done - technically - as I have tested most of it with primitive add-ons on my own PSG.

A PSG delivered with mechanical solutions for pitching the remaining intervals so they all at least sounded Just in any key, would really set it apart - for me. But ... maybe that's just me

[James Mayer]

I always make sure there is some "return" clause.
If it's "all sales are final" I prefer to try before I buy.
Nobody should ever feel they got ripped off.

James, what brand/model of Pedal Steel do you have?

I don't have one, yet. I have a custom Lone Star S6 being built that should be ready in Sept.

[Jack Dougherty]

OK ...after sorting through the last couple of pages a few observations....

The notion of "This is the best sounding guitar"
is at best highly subjecive.

I will play any steel.....If it was given to me!

Most mechanical issues can be delt with. EG: Emmons P/P.

Why would you buy something you did'nt like or try?

All Pedal steels are not equal....just different.

If I had 6000 plus dollors I might....MIGHT think about a new guitar...( I know there are less expensive ones)

But why when there are so many real good used ones out there.

Costly does not equal good.

Never buy a guitar because you saw somebody else playing it. (somebody really big)

Lastly.....To thine own self be true

[JERRY THURMOND]

James this is a good thread, I always thought there was a few brands of steel guitars that did not play very well, some was hard to keep in tune, an some were just not built very well. But at the very beginning of this forum back in 1996,if you bad mouthed any brand of steel you would get jumped on by many people, at that point all discussion about that brand of guitar was lost. I believe this is still true today we can't have any type of discussion on what is wrong with brand x with out losing sight of the subject. But this is still a great place, an we are lucky to have it.

Jerry

[Jim Sliff]

it seems that every new pedal steel posted on this forum gets invariably positive reviews on every important aspect of the sound and playability.

As b0b said, there HAVE been negative comments about both new and old steels - but board members learn pretty quickly that bad reviews are met with anything ranging from "that's YOUR opinion - and it's wrong" to anonymous email threats.

This forum is very unique in that regard. On most music forums players are hoping for truthful information, good or bad. It helps people make wise buying decisions and can save someone a lot of grief.

But there are many tight little "clubs" here, and they discourage open discussion (and especially negative comments) about their favorite instruments or gadgets.

I know of several members who no longer post because they were simply burnt-out by the rabid instrument evangelism. It's a shame IMO.

[Bob Carlucci]

I made the mistake of badmouthing Sho-Bud Mavericks once, and legions of Maverick enthusiasts jumped all over me. Lesson learned. "There are no bad steel guitars." (Yeah, right.)

There are nit-picking details that I dislike about every steel guitar I've ever owned. None are perfect, but few are actually "bad". Even if I reject a specific guitar, I wouldn't badmouth the brand because every hand-made pedal steel is different. It's more than "your mileage may vary" - the next guitar out of a particular shop could be very well suited to its owner.

Bob, you are too nice a guy so I'll say it.. Mavericks were junk.. At least the "neckless" contact paper variety.. Same goes for the Red Baron etc.. just bad.
Todays "student" models are much better, but there is still not one I'd play regularly.. Personally I have owned a few "pro" steels that I felt were NOT very good. Some of the brands are still around so I won't mention specifics.
I really feel we are overly cautious about what we say, because this is a very small and close knit community.. We have everyday barroom players and beginners hob nobbing with the worlds upper echelon elite players and builders on a daily basis , becoming friends, sharing the same stages at shows, keeping in contact with one another... That seldom happens with lets say the worlds top shelf guitarists, vocalists, drummers etc... Think a Guitar Center wanker, heavy metal, out of tune "brootal doood" would be able to keep in contact with Slash, Kirk Hammet, or Dave Mustaine?... won't happen.. They are not accessable to joe average guitar player.. Steel is so different. Its a community thats more "caring and inclusive".
[hate those words, makes me sound like a liberal!]
We tend to not want to make anyone angry within the community.. I am not sure thats a great thing, but I guess its better than being pissed off at one another over personal opinions .. bob

[Barry Hyman]

One of the main reasons I joined The Forum was to see how I could improve on my old MSA. I ended up reading about all the new manufacturers (the last time I had shopped for a steel was in 1974) and got enchanted with Williams because I read that Bill Rudolph really takes the woodwork and the finishes seriously. That appealed to me because, being the all-natural type, I was tired of faux-rosewood mica, even though it sounded and worked fine. So I sold my MSA and bought a new Williams, unheard and unseen, trusting in what I had read on The Forum, and am as happy as a pig in _____. (Are we allowed four letter words here, b0b?)

So the general rave culture on this Forum about PSG manufacturers that you guys seem to find worrisome didn't do me any harm -- quite the opposite -- I feel that I got first class information. I'm convinced all the positive talk is because most modern steel manufacturers are conscientious, rather than that we're all too sweet and nice. There seem to be plenty of people here on the Forum besides myself who would not hesitate to call a rat a rat.

For example: About "just" tuning -- the piano is tempered. The guitar is tempered. The banjo is tempered. The bass is tempered. Listeners to western music have been getting used to tempered tuning for four hundred years! If you tune your steel to just tuning all you will succeed in doing is sounding out of tune compared to the other instruments in the band. And not only will your open E chord sound slightly off, your open C# chord (A pedal and F lever) will sound horrendous! Buy a $20 tuner and set it to A 440 and tune all your strings and pedals and knees and splits to that, and stop obsessing! Some guys get compensators and tune some strings to 441.5, and others to 438.9, and all sorts of other neurotic ridiculous stuff, as if their hand with the bar was accurate enough to worry about those tiny differences!

There, see -- I'm speaking my mind, not being too nice, making fun of crazy pedal steel players again, unafraid of the consequences! (And yes, I can hear perfectly well, thankyou -- I tuned by ear many times every day for about 35 years, so don't say that I am incapable of hearing your superior hearing.) All these guys who obsess on extreme exotic tuning practices would be better off spending the time actually playing music.

Does that make you feel better, James? An honest opinion, not too sickly sweet?

[Bill Moran]

Bob, Like you, I have made statements, I wish I could recall, about steel guitar brands. The all sound good with the right picker behind it. For me, and I have owned many, I always come home to the Mullen. It fits. I feel like it will do what I want it to do. Sounds great, so I have ended my search after spending thousands of dollars . You know how that old shotgun you had that never missed a bird.
I will never look passed the Mullen web. for another.
I'm sure others have found a brand they feel the same about.

[Ned McIntosh]

It seems to me we are in danger of fallng into the trap of arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We are getting too involved in the minutiae of the steel when we should be taking a broader view. So here are my thoughts on why we rarely if ever hear of a BAD steel-guitar.

1. These things are not easy to make! It requires a good working knowledge of woodworking (and wood is anything but homogenous), luthiery, marquetry, surface-preparation and wood-finishing in all its myriad forms and varieties - and that's before you get to the metal-work.

2. These things require precision and exactness to build properly. To build a steel-guitar requires the expert knowledge, skill and exacting tolerances of the precision engineer working with appropriate machine-tools to fabricate and assemble the mechanical components, especially the various styles of changers, bellcranks, pivots, cross-rods, shafts, joints and roller-nuts. Only the machine-heads can be purchased ready-made, and even these vary from type to type and maker to maker. It is my belief that with precision and accuracy comes repeatability and inherent quality.

3. These things are not made quickly! By virtue of the complexity and size of the instrument you can't knock one up in a garage in a couple of weekends with a couple of planks of wood, a Dremel tool and a table-saw. They take time - a good deal of it - to create. Like building a good aircraft, sub-assemblies must first be made and tested before being mated to their substrate or interlocking parts. If some parts or sub-assemblies are out-sourced then supply and delivery issues become significant.
If the builder is a sole person essentially working on his own then it is small wonder extended delivery times are the norm. The waiting-list for an Anapeg is literally years. Try to buy a brand-new Fulawka in a hurry. Ditto for some of the high-end US-manufactured steels...and this is in the nation where the instrument was invented and where the great majority of the world's manufacturers are located. Sure, there are some companies that can make you a custom steel (and a darned good one!) in a few months, but nearly all builders are really boutique industries, not huge mass-production factories.

4. Only people who know and love this instrument can actually build it! The builders are almost invariably former or current players. They truly know and understand and love this instrument, deeply. They know you cannot compromise on structures or materials without compromising sound and durability. They go the extra mile to solve complex mechanical and musical problems so the purchaser will be proud of the instrument and will speak highly of it.
A proud purchaser is your best advertisment because he costs you only the time and care you took to build him a great instrument, and he doesn't ask to be paid every time he tells someone how good his steel-guitar is. (I'll bet Antonio Stradivari worked pretty much the same way for the same reasons.)

5. In an industry as specialised as steel-guitar manufacture, making a poor quality product is a sure-fire way to commercial extinction. So it is in the best interests of the makers to produce quality products and to be receptive to owner/player feedback. Given the manufacturer has no control over the personality of the owner, and some people are never happy, occasionally you will get someone who really pays out on a builder, but this is rare. On the whole I feel we are well-served by the dedicated guys and gals who build steels.

6. The marketplace is small, specialised and knows what it is looking at by the time it is ready to shell out the hard-earned folding-money for a purchase.
I'd bet very few of us just suddenly got the thought into our heads to rush out and buy a steel-guitar, did we? First, we heard the music, and we heard one instrument that spoke to us through that music. Initially we probably didn't even know what the instrument was called, let alone what it looked like or how it was played. But we just knew the sound of it and it fascinated us.
Gradually we learned its name, then what it looked like, then we learned the names of the great players. We began to hear the steel in a lot of music, some of which we realised was very familiar, we just hadn't been listening with ears "tuned" to pedal-steel before. Then, from somewhere inside us the desire to play the steel-guitar arose. At this point the addiction began, and to assuage it we had to own, and learn to play, a steel. We did our research, went to some live shows, tried to talk to the wierdo who played it, found he was more than willing to talk about this instrument, and from there on it was all downhill!
The point is, by the time we were ready to buy, we knew quite a bit about the steel-guitar. We were aware of issues such as cabinet-drop, changeable copedents, weight, push-pull versus all-pull, maintainability, tone, materials, finishes etc etc etc. One of the things we were most aware of was how much these things cost! When you are spending significant thousands on a musical instrument, you don't rush your purchase.

Well, that's about it for my thoughts on this subject. Perhaps the single most variable thing about the steel-guitar is the people who play it. And it's be a pretty safe bet there are far more BAD steel-guitar players than there are BAD steel-guitars.

[Dave Mudgett]

And it's be a pretty safe bet there are far more BAD steel-guitar players than there are BAD steel-guitars.

Can we have an Amen chorus?

[Georg Sørtun]

Can we have an Amen chorus?

I'll join in ... as long as no-one expect me to temper my steel for it

[Jeff Evans]

. . . BAD steel-guitar players . . .

Can we have an Amen chorus?

So, discussion along those lines is welcomed? Would it instead be stifled with an artificially egalitarian vision of "Let us not speak of such things"?

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Amen !
my Zum is not worthy of me

[Dave Mudgett]

Let me add - my steels are also most definitely worthy of greater than me. But I'm not givin' 'em up.