My rant concerning the near obsolescence of sheet music

[James Mayer]

I only edited the title. The only other edits I made were at the time of the postings. The original rant has not been edited from it's original form, I promise. The edit date changed because I change the title, today. I changed the title because I thought the responses were getting more heated than they should get.

Most of my edits are due to spelling or misuse of web links and they are done immediately after I post. Again, the original post has NOT been edited.

Please tell me where you found grounds to make this claim?

[Earnest Bovine]

Those rebutting the intial post were responding to a rant about the obsolescence of sheet music and the necessity to read notation. That rant no longer exists.

Then let's rant about spelling.
Я́ша Хе́йфец
יצחק פרלמן
Анто́н Рубинште́йн

[Herb Steiner]

James
The very title of the post was argumentative in and of itself and started the heated discussion. Then changing the title gives the impression that those writing in response over-reacted, when in fact, they did not. That is being disingenuous, IMO.

[David Mason]

First of all, if "we" can't find a way to keep this thread centered on me and how cool I am, I'm goin' back over to Egomaniac.com where I can get treated with a little respect.

I believe many formally trained musicians treat non-formally trained musicians with contempt... You've never run into "classical snobs"? That was the environment I grew up in, and they're still out there in quantity, IMO.

Indeed they are. There are some classical musicians who are the absolute worst.

Well, you need to start hanging out with a better class of people too. Seriously, I go out of my way to avoid ignorant, disagreeable people (must be why I like it here, huh). Life is hard enough already. Don't you know any hippies you can hang out with? Hippies love classical music - the Lone Ranger Song, the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Sixth where Bugs is toolin' through the forest, just before Elmer shows up with the shotgun... The Monkey Song, from 2001, where that thing from the cover of "Who's Next" tricks the monkeys into whackin' them skulls. But they're not snobby about it (the hippies not the monkeys that is). After all, there's only two kinds of education in the world. Speaking of language:

Saya bersenggolan dengan seorang yang tidak dikenal ketika ia lewat.
"Oh, maafkan saya" adalah reaksi saya. Ia berkata, "Maafkan saya juga; Saya tidak melihat Anda."
Orang tidak dikenal itu, juga saya, berlaku
sangat sopan. Akhirnya kami berpisah dan mengucapkan selamat tinggal.

Namun cerita lainnya terjadi di rumah, lihat bagaimana kita memperlakukan orang-orang yang kita kasihi, tua dan muda.

Another point of strong language that I used was"sterilized portal". I could have explained it in a nicer way. Transcribers attempting to record "other" music will often just remove the parts of the music that can't be written well. Attempting to transcribe flamenco compas results in compound time signatures that the transcriber must surely have known was completely wrong. Not an approximation, but completely incorrect. Leaving out micro-tones or "ethnic" ornaments was surely apparent at the time of writing. This clearly demonstrates the elitist disrespect for "folk" music. Furthermore, that notation eventually BECOMES the music if someone is a strict reader.

- James M.

Now, that is a really good point (nice hat too, BTW). Viewing anything through a filter (or "comb" so to speak) obscures whatever's behind the "teeth" and eventually that information can (& WILL) become lost. The more precise the recording of the initial info, the better chance there is of successful communication? Same with linguistic imprecision, same with Mp3's, same with your TV pix what breaks up into cute li'l squares. I'm not sure the intent is always a result of disrespectful contempt*, but the effect is the same - one reason why precision in stuff like music notation (and LANGUAGE snrksnrksnrk) is such a fun idea! And, notation could be better, even though some insist it's perfect enough to transmit everything worth transmitting (a betterclass redux). Every time I'm trying to translate Swahili into Japanese, I'm ALWAYS AMAZED at how stupid my Spanish/French dictionary is... but still, it's kind of you to "explain" things to us savages, I never woulda knowed otherwise.

*(gee better hope not, in context. Sloth, indifference, and good ol' ignorance are always primo candidates for human imprecision - and causation, too!) snrksnrksnrk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5sXk5tHbqA

You know, the New York Philharmonic tried to option this for $3,000,000, but Metallica said, like, "No Way! That's way too much - we want to give it to you for free!" And the Phil's guys said, like, "No Way! We're not payin' a penny less than two mil for it, that thar's some fine art!" The "beep" at 2:18 is especially celestial... timeless, even.

If it wasn't for thread degeneracy, we might not have no generacy at all. Bow-dow-dump, bow-dow.

- some blues guy

[David Mason]

HERE is something interesting that I've never seen before. This is far from widely used. Even so, I'm tempted to learn it and discover it's strengths and weaknesses.

http://carnatic2000.tripod.com/notation.htm

You're also really, really gonna want to buy a copy of the just-rereleased book by Ravi Shankar, "My Music, My Life". It was OOP for decades and I combed Ebay to land a soft and hardcover 1st edition. I ought to buy a new one to keep the old ones clean, hmmm. It's some history, but it's mostly a style guide and technique manual for the sitar - this "carnatic2000" is using the same language, so it must be more or less what a teacher* would use - but of course, it's imprecise. I can stare at a book a lot longer than I can stare at a computer screen, tote it around, scribble in it (not the 1st edition! ) etc. (Scribbleability is a HUGE advantage of paper-based music)

*(Guru is a foreign word dammit)

At the time Shankar wrote it, he was consciously dumbing down his own playing - happy major-scale tunes in 4/4 time, raga "excerpts", thumri - a result of the whole "Ambassador of Indian Music" schtick he got saddled with. On his very-early-60's Angel recordings, he was a testosterone-fueled firebreathing dragon, then he got tame and didn't get his groove back till the late 80's. Still, it's the best book I've ever seen of the real stuff. There's kind of a secretive, occult aspect about not writing stuff down for the great unwashed... like the plans for atom bombs & LSD recipes, perhaps. I suspect they think we're savages....

click here

There is still enormous amounts of scary & dangerous Indian music out there, more than ever, but you have to dig. Regretfully, Debashish Bhattacharya seems to be getting normaler as he gets more popular too - hey it happened to Fleetwood Mac & Kenny G too.
click here

[Bill Hatcher]

I only edited the title.

You should not edit the title after the fact. You give the illusion that you are trying to "sanitize" something by changing the title and make yourself look better.

You have a bizarre opinion of the written page and those who play it. To demean a classical player like you did and say that they lack creativity because they are playing the written page only lets me know that you do not understand or appreciate the creativity it takes for them to take the written page and be creative in the way they express it.

I personally think by reading your threads that you harbor a deep insecurity of written music and the establishment of educated musicians who exist in that environment. This seems to be your way of justifying your stature in respects to them. Why else would you even need to make ANY negative statements about them???

I always take the opinion that if I cannot play it, I should not talk bad about it....whether it be written music or ice hockey. So it would be good for you to exemplify your skill in playing written classical music no matter how advanced or simple so that I can determine your credibility to make the statements you have made. Sure, you can make all you want..whether I put any credence in them is another thing.

Now, do you have something you can post on here of you playing any written classical music on your steel guitar?? If you don't or if you cannot play anything like this on your steel then to me, everything you have said concerning classical players and written music is just your own opinion and is rooted in shallowness.

If you have never spent any time playing with a symphony orchestra then you are clueless as to their environment and the musical skill it takes to be a part of it. You would only have your opinion....based on pretty much nothing.

[Doug Beaumier]

Editing the title is not fair to those who replied to the post.

The original title said that sheet music is obsolete. Now it says that sheet music is limited.
The original title was "My Rant" about sheet music. Now it's called "My Post" about sheet music.

[b0b]

A good composer puts notes in the composition that an ear player would never notice. We learn so much from reading the music. Any anti-reading "rant" invokes an intense knee-jerk response from those of us who learned to play from the written page.

[James Mayer]

Editing the title is not fair to those who replied to the post.

The original title said that sheet music is obsolete. Now it says that sheet music is limited.
The original title was "My Rant" about sheet music. Now it's called "My Post" about sheet music.

Ok, I'm going to change it back to it's original form after I post this. I made several posts stating that I wished I had worded the title less offensively, prompting an email from Bob pointing out that I have the ability to edit the title. It seems every move I make is a bad one.

Would someone please address the fact that sheet music isn't available for most of the music out there? Or that you have to order it and wait for it shipped if you don't live near a store that specializes in sheet music. Or the fact that fewer stores are specializing in sheet music even though you can't find that much free sheet music on the web? They are closing their doors, why? Please address my post about finding a better written language that corrects the shortcoming of the present standard.

I've read enough posts condemning me to shallow thought patterns. David Mason makes posts that both agree and disagree with what I've said, but they are so seething in sarcasm that I have to assume that they are not meant to support any point at all, but to jump on the berating bandwagon.

I work with programming languages. Old standards eventually die because there is always something new popping up to remedy the shortcomings of the current batch of popular languages. Sure, there are older languages that are used on legacy systems that will eventually be obsolete. If I make the same post about FORTRAN in a computer science forum, the minds will be far more open to discussion, no matter what abjectives I use.

I'm taking Bill Hatchers words:
"I personally think by reading your threads that you harbor a deep insecurity of written music and the establishment of educated musicians who exist in that environment. This seems to be your way of justifying your stature in respects to them. Why else would you even need to make ANY negative statements about them???"

...and pointing them directly back at the knee-jerk reactors.

There is no excuse for a knee-jerk reaction to anything remotely involving music. It's an open discussion. This is not faith, it can be analyzed. There is nothing about how I play or what I play that can be insulted or get a defensive reaction from me. I'm confident in what I am doing. I've posted recordings of my band to get feedback from forumites. Some forumites chose to insult my tastes. I did not have a knee-jerk reaction.

Again, I've slammed modern country and it's vanillafied, formulaic, over-production and never received responses suggesting that I simply don't understand their world. Because I also state that I love classic country, the rest of you can relate. I'm not labeled ignorant or insecure for the sole reason that most of you agree with me.

Who jumped on the dude who reduced Metallica's Magnum Opus to "30 seconds of distorted guitars does not good music make"? I bet none of you jump to defend rap or hip-hop. I'd bet most of you have made negative remarks about that world of music and don't feel it's coming from a place of insecurity.

Strong language can be used and the use of it does not negate the points being illustrated. I learned to program using a language that is now near obsolete. I never became upset or offended when something better came along.

I'm hoping for something better. I'm open-minded and hopeful about change. I don't know everything about every genre, nor does anyone on earth. But, I have learned to read sheet music with an open mind, followed by realizations that there is a lot to be desired with that method.

What if there was a new method that is easier to learn for those that didn't learn to read as a child? What if it also addressed the wider world of music on it's own terms. What if all that could be accomplished and notation's current strengths were left intact? I never think such a thing is impossible.

[b0b]

I used to believe that written music would be easier to read as colored boxes on graph paper. As I grew up, though, I came to appreciate the richness of the traditional system.

The only valid complaint that I hear from steel players is that it doesn't tell you where to place the bar. That is easily remedied with a fret number hint above the staff. Other instruments use similar hints to resolve ambiguities.

Then there's the complaint that it's too hard. Some people simply find it easier to learn by listening and memorizing. Those people deliberately limit the kinds of music that they play based on whether the music can be learned through osmosis or not. James apparently belongs to that group of people.

[James Mayer]

Those people deliberately limit the kinds of music that they play based on whether the music can be learned through osmosis or not. James apparently belongs to that group of people.

Please address my comments about microtones and the limits of classical rhythm notation. I can't tell if you actually disagree with my statements or if you just don't think it matters that much.

HERE is a song that I would like to arrange for steel.

I've tried many times to find sheet music or tab for this, even though I'm not confident that it will take into account the nuances of the vocals. The rhythm is a straight tangos/rumba, so that part would be easy to notate correctly.

How would you go about learning this piece?

[Bill Hatcher]

How would you go about learning this piece?

I would just hire this band to come play a pool party with the stipulation that they only play this one piece over and over and over....about the 1000th time and I would pretty much have it down...


If their fee was too high...I would just listen to it a section at a time and learn it and notate it myself.

[b0b]

Please address my comments about microtones and the limits of classical rhythm notation. I can't tell if you actually disagree with my statements or if you just don't think it matters that much.

Lou Harrison used standard musical notation for his microtonal compositions. He simply specified the pitch of each note on the staff in advance, as a ratio of the tonic. Harrison also wrote some very complex percussion pieces, bordering on the unplayable, that have since been tackled by virtuoso musicians.

It's hard for me to imagine music that can't be represented on paper using the standard system. Your YouTube folk music doesn't sound out of the realm of write-ability to me. In fact, writing it down may be the only way to properly communicate it.

[James Mayer]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I haven't seen adjustments in the staff for microtonal notation. If the staff is changed to microtones, does that mean standard western notes are still represented the same way? The way that I'm imagining it, from your description, is that it's a replacement, not an addition.

Also, how would you tackle learning the piece that I posted? I have the recording on CD, but it's just easier to post a link to youtube than rip a cd, convert to mp3 and post to a file-sharing site.

[b0b]

A staff needn't be treble or bass clef, or have any clef at all. The well-known clefs are standardized instructions for what note goes on which line or space. There's no rule that keeps you from assigning pitches that are more appropriate to the music at hand.

If I needed to learn the melody of that YouTube song you posted, I'd like to see it written down so that I could separate the improvisation from the composer's intended notes. I think it's generally better to learn from the original written music (if it's available), instead of copying a performer's interpretation.

[James Mayer]

A staff needn't be treble or bass clef, or have any clef at all. The well-known clefs are standardized instructions for what note goes on which line or space. There's no rule that keeps you from assigning pitches that are more appropriate to the music at hand.

If I needed to learn the melody of that YouTube song you posted, I'd like to see it written down so that I could separate the improvisation from the composer's intended notes. I think it's generally better to learn from the original written music (if it's available), instead of copying a performer's interpretation.

But, the notation isn't available. You knew that was my point.

HERE's another one that I learned that is not available on notation. It's not obscure at all. It's by freaking Neil Young, yet not available in written form. This one is simple, so maybe it's not the best example. We learned the melody and chords in about an hour, added new parts(a solo/bridge), lyrics, and arranged it for 6 instruments. All the tracks were recorded in the next couple of weeks. If I had found the notation online, it would have been several days via snail-mail before we could even get started.

I've already made this point, that most of the music I hope to learn has hit a dead end when searching for notation. This is my real world experience, not some rumor that I've heard. Do people just give up when they can't find notation? Do they just move on to the next piece in hopes that they can find something?

If I could find even 50% of what I've looked for, I would be an avid reader and wouldn't have any need for a better method. As it stands, I can find about 20%.

The way I see it, I'm a product of my environment and the resources available. So, I have enough reading skills to get me through the exceedingly odd times when I actually have the option to use it.

So, how am I "limiting" myself to osmosis? It seems to me that anyone who gives up on learning a piece because there isn't notation available is limited.

You choose the right tool for the job and sharpen whichever tool you use the most.

[b0b]

Neil Young's music is simple enough to learn by listening. It's repetitious and doesn't contain any unexpected notes. And if you play it differently, who's going to care? It's essentially folk music, which follows the oral tradition (as it always has).

It's not hard to write it down, but why bother?

[James Mayer]

And if you play it differently, who's going to care?

And with that, I'm making my last post. I think that the differences in our fundamental perception of music is really the problem here, not the method of learning it. The method is merely a symptom.

I see music as a living, breathing, evolving thing. It doesn't belong in a museum. It's part of humanity and all the beautiful imperfections that comes with it. "Imperfections" are also known as "style", "character" and "soul".

Who is the "who" that is going to care(as opposed to "applaud") if someone plays it differently? Sounds like a bore.

[b0b]

Interestingly, when the Neil Young song ended YouTube recommended this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlvUepMa31o

Now, as hard as I try, I can't imagine learning music like this without the sheet music. I have many recordings of this piece and they are all different and they are all beautiful. And yes, I would care if someone played it with different notes. It wouldn't sound like the same piece.

[Dave Mudgett]

I've already made this point, that most of the music I hope to learn has hit a dead end when searching for notation. This is my real world experience, not some rumor that I've heard. Do people just give up when they can't find notation? Do they just move on to the next piece in hopes that they can find something?

Seriously - if one has good reading/writing facilty and a good ear, one can quickly transcribe it to notation. I would only do this if it was too complex to [edit]keep track of it[/edit] by ear, since I don't do it all the time and I'm not real facile these days. I was honestly better at age 12 when I was deep into classical piano. But I think the basic skill is useful to any practicing musician.

I don't think a personal transcription like this has to perfectly capture every nuance to be useful in learning a piece. If it gets me close, I can pick up subtle issues by ear - possibly notating them in the margin - which is what I'm likely to do anyway. To me, the objective of rapid learning is to quickly reduce the uncertainty to a manageable level.

The other thing is that if one isn't real strong in this type of transcription - let's say one finds writing in keys with 4 or 5 sharps/flats is a PITA - it's possible to notate as if it's in the key of C where every #/b is an accidental, and simply write, e.g., "Key of F#" at the beginning of the passage. For me, the idea of something like this is to get the sense of the music. I'd honestly prefer a purely number-oriented notational system, but I'm an cs/engineering/math kinda' guy like you. I don't know any non-science/math type musicians who agree with me on this, so "When in Rome".

Hey, Dave M. - any possibility you could shorten those links? They're twice as wide as the page and force a lot of annoying width-ways scrolling to read the page. The syntax for doing that (with this page as a target) is

Code: Select all

[url=http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=164704&start=125]Click here for link.[/url]

which gives this

Click here for link.

[b0b]

I've shortened Dave's long links.

[Donny Hinson]

Well (and certainly with no insult intended), that should'a been a tip off about how deeeply you're into music.

That is simply unfair. You have probably never heard of half of the people who I admire. Ever heard of Anwar Brahim? Raphael Fayes? That doesn't mean that you are ignorant or not deeply "into music".

Brahim? Nope, never heard of him. Fays? Yes, definitely (since I'm a fan of Django's).

However, there was still nothing "unfair" in my statement. Heifetz, Rubinstein, and Perlman are GIANTS in the world of classical music. And anyone who proposes to draw comparisons between classical orchestral arrangements and rock "songs" should study a little more about these musicians, or at least be aware of them.

I don't fault you, James, but our society. A society that neglects to educate in the fine arts, but instead stresses sports (to the tune of billions of dollars) loses a large measure of the culture and refinement that once helped define us as "civilized people".

[Herb Steiner]

A society that neglects to educate in the fine arts, but instead stresses sports (to the tune of billions of dollars) loses a large measure of the culture and refinement that once helped define us as "civilized people".

Charlie Parker was once asked what was his opinion of "civilization," and he replied "Civilization is great. People oughta try it sometime."

[Earnest Bovine]

... It's repetitious and doesn't contain any unexpected notes. ...
It's not hard to write it down, but why bother?

Sometimes it can be very useful to write down that kind of music. That Metallica song Puppet Master that James referred to is a good example. The content is very simple but it would be easy to get lost because it is so repetitive. Having a written road map helps you to know where you are when all the landmarks look (sound) the same.


It also helps a lot at rehearsals. Can you imagine how long it would take to change something at a rehearsal when there is no unambiguous way to refer to a place in the song? The only way to do it is to start at the beginning and play till you get to the spot. Haven't we all been there and done that? Not fun.

[James Mayer]

Brahim? Nope, never heard of him. Fays? Yes, definitely (since I'm a fan of Django's).

However, there was still nothing "unfair" in my statement. Heifetz, Rubinstein, and Perlman are GIANTS in the world of classical music. And anyone who proposes to draw comparisons between classical orchestral arrangements and rock "songs" should study a little more about these musicians, or at least be aware of them.

I don't fault you, James, but our society. A society that neglects to educate in the fine arts, but instead stresses sports (to the tune of billions of dollars) loses a large measure of the culture and refinement that once helped define us as "civilized people".

Ok, so I'll join the list of people on this thread that tried to walk away but couldn't.

Donny, you've basically just said that I'm uncivilized. This isn't about music anymore, it's about class warfare. If any of your GIANTS are so great then they can transcend their little prizm and their art can speak for itself. They are GIANTS to some and some only. People seek out what moves them and the pie is divided accordingly.

I've actually got LESS respect for "civilized" music because of condescending elitist posts such as yours. Was it's purpose to me me feel less civilized or to make you feel more civilized?

Do you realize how many great musicians that have existed that payed little or no attention to these GIANTS? Should I respect them any less? Do you think I just decided to only admire musicians that really have no intersection at all with the western "civilized" musical realm? I'm moved by what I'm moved by and if your education teaches me it's wrong that I don't want to be right.

My sister was taught classical piano. She listens to much of the same music that I do and doesn't have near the appetite for musicianship that I do. She doesn't even play any more. We all know musicians that were educated in music when they were young and who, at some point, lost interest. You can't teach passion and you can't force appreciation. I was taught to be a baptist before I could even read. Now, I'm a skeptic. Blame society.

This has a very close parallel to a racist argument. It's really not far from it. After all, we are all taught about every European contribution to early history and all but ignore every other continent. This is just a different facet of the same old thing. No, I'm not calling you a racist. I'm calling you a product of a racist society.