Real Hillbillys and bluegrass?

[David Hartley]

Is there such a place in the USA where you can see bluegrass playing and banjo pickers. I've always imagined there's a little village somewhere where you can see a bunch of old folk picking bluegrass on their porches.
Or have I watched too many old movies?

David

[Don Drummer]

Yes David there is indeed such a place. It is not a village per se but an area of Virginia that spans the distance from Galax Va. to Floyd Va. Through out the year you'll find a regular schudule of Jams and Dances in this area. The reverence for traditional music in this area is historical and has attracted many. As I write this there is an old- time/ bluegrass festival in Galax Va. This festival is quite old and has seen it's ups and downs. Interestingly, the "Old Time" music scene is white hot among the younger demographic. Much more so than Bluegrass in both it's traditional and modern variants. Hope this answers your question. Don D.

[Bill Stroud]

David go to www.caseyjones.com this in Jasckson Tn about 50 miles south of where I live between Nashville & Memphis leave Nashville stop by Jackson, go to Memphis to Elvis Presley place and you've got a good tour going on.
At the Casey Jones site click on events and you'll see some Bluegrass pickers on there. They have Bluegrass I think every Thursday and Friday nights, I think maybe someone that really knows will correct me with some more information on the Bluegrass playing, I was invited to play there, but they are all Acoustic instruments.
Check it out.
Bill

[Rick Campbell]

Uh Oh David, You struck a nerve. I'll explain in very uncertain terms. Yes, you've been watching too much Hee Haw and Beverley Hillbillys. Bluegrass and Old Time Music are entirely different things. Even though both use fiddles and banjos. However, Old Time music didn't use three finger rolls on the banjo, and the timing and dyanamics are different. In fact, Bluegrass music didn't even exist until 1939 when Bill Monroe played on the Grand Ole Opry. Since his music was different than the Old Time music of Uncle Dave Macon, Jimmy Thompson, etc... and it wasn't country either, they gave it the name Bluegrass, because Monroe is from the Bluegrass state of Kentucky (named for the grass, not the music)

The descriptions of old guys sitting on the front porch, in overalls, old clothes, picking music, drinking moonshine, etc... is related to Old Time music, not bluegrass. Bill Monroe would never go on stage in less than a nice suit, tie, shoes shined, etc... and he insisted that the band dress likewise. I got to work for him for awhile in 1993 and again in 1994, and I feel like he took a lot of the music with him when he died. A great man.

The confusion comes from the fact that Bills music has roots in some of the old Scotish, Irish music, and some folk remnants blended in, but the timing and vocal arrangements were Monroe's doing.

Now that I've got that off my chest. To answer your question, you can hear bluegrass, and it's variations, at the Station Inn. Check their website for schedules.

Man, I love your playing.

[David Doggett]

Rick is exactly right. The old Scotch-Irish folk music is now called Old Time, banjos are frailed "claw-hammer" style. Bill Monroe and Earl Scruggs invented and popularized Bluegrass, with its characteristic fast banjo rolls, in the early radio and recording days of the '30s and '40s. Bill's band was called The Bluegrass Boys, named after Bill's origins in "The Bluegrass State" of Kentucky. At one point Bill toured in a bus with a steel guitar player and a baseball team. And Bluegrass was popularized by radio and recordings, not through folk tradition.

So the concept of Bluegrass music as a pure folk tradition is bogus. It is a popular style invented by specific individuals in the radio and recording age. Of course, it borrows heavily from the true Old Time and folk traditions, as well as blues, jazz (particularly ragtime), and Country & Western. Since the '30s you can find people all over the South, as well as the rest of the country, playing both Old Time and Bluegrass on their porches and in their living rooms, as well as in some clubs.

Bluegrass was almost eclipsed by country and rock'n'roll in the '50s, although Bill and other bands still played the Opry and a few long-standing Bluegrass annual festivals. The folk craze of the '60s brought Bluegrass back to some extent. The films "Bonnie and Clyde" and "Deliverance" brought it back again in the '70s. A few years back the film "Oh, Brother, Where Art Though" brought it back again. Every time it comes back, there is a resurgence in Bluegrass clubs, festivals, and back-porch pickers.

[Stephen Gambrell]

It wasn't even called "Bluegrass" music till sometime in the 1950's. Bill's band was called the Blue Grass Boys, but the music was still just called "country."

And, just for grins and giggles, Rick Campbell is one of the finest bluegrass AD country fiddlers around. And a great friend, and good Masonic Brother, to boot.

[David Doggett]

David H. (and others not familiar with U.S. demographics and geography), as to your question about "place," Old Time, Bluegrass, and Country all had their origins in the Scotch-Irish culture of the Southern Appalachians. Starting in Colonial times, British persecution and recurrent "potato famines" drove the Scotch-Irish out of Northern Ireland (where they had been imported from Scotland by the British to dilute the Catholics) and to America. Many of the poorest of those immigrated to the Southern colonies. They often came as indentured servants, promising to pay for their voyage by several years of unpaid labor. The low coastal plains were already owned by plantation slave owners, so the SI migrated and escaped indenturetude inland to the unclaimed frontier back up in the mountains. Many stayed there for generations in culturally isolated conditions that preserved the old folk culture. But they also migrated with the expansion of the frontier Westward, and eventually populated the River states and then the Southwest. So their cultural stamp (and music) extends all across the Southeast and Southwest, and also includes the rural Southern portions of such "Northern" states as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri, and in dilute form up through the Northwest, even into Canada and Alaska. Then in the mid-twentieth century, there were large migrations of Southerners (white and black) to work in the factories in Chicago, Detroit and other cities in the Northern Mid-west. A huge chunk of the tourists coming to the Opry in Nashville, come from those areas. And Nashville Country stars have made much of their livelihood touring concerts in those Northern Mid-western cities.

So, while the core pocket of the Scotch-Irish folk culture is in the Southern Appalachians, it extends widespread all across the Southern and Mid parts of the country. So, yes, you can find real backporch Old Time and Bluegrass pickers in Eastern Kentucky and North Carolina, but also in Indiana.

[Rick Campbell]

Steve...thank you for the compliment. That's earned you a free ticket to mine and Bama Charlie's monster show. Say something else good about me, and we'll throw in a backstage pass.

[Scott Shipley]

At one point Bill toured in a bus with a steel guitar player and a baseball team.

Bill never toured with either, he hired regular pickers who could play baseball. It was all part of the "show." At one point he even offered prize money to anybody who could go 10 rounds with him in a boxing ring, and lifted the ENTIRE Bluegrass Boys band on his shoulders (on a bench) as part of the attraction. Btw, this was when Chubby Wise and Mac Wiseman were in the band, over a half a ton of Bluegrass on his shoulders! Bill was 40ish at the time.

Bluegrass was almost eclipsed by country and rock'n'roll in the '50s, although Bill and other bands still played the Opry and a few long-standing Bluegrass annual festivals. The folk craze of the '60s brought Bluegrass back to some extent. The films "Bonnie and Clyde" and "Deliverance" brought it back again in the '70s. A few years back the film "Oh, Brother, Where Art Though" brought it back again. Every time it comes back, there is a resurgence in Bluegrass clubs, festivals, and back-porch pickers.

Like brother Stephen said, Bluegrass wasn't known as Bluegrass in the 50's, it was called Country or Hillbilly music, as was everything that came out of Nashville at the time.
And let's not forget New Grass Revival, Ricky, Del, and Allison as part of the revivals..........

[Rick Campbell]

A little confusion. The band was call the Bluegrass Boys from 1939 on....see this clip from the Bill Monroe website. I don't know when the music industry adoped that name. I suspect it was a gradual thing.

Personally, I enjoyed Monroe's music the most from the late 50's to the end.

In 1938, the highly successful duo (Bill and Charlie) split up, and Bill formed his first band, the Kentuckians. A year later Monroe changed the name to the Blue Grass Boys and soon set his sights on Nashville. Monroe was only 28 years old when he joined the Opry cast on Oct. 28, 1939. Introduced by George D. Hay, the Opry's founder, Monroe performed a the Jimmie Rodgers hit "Muleskinner Blues" and got three encores that first night at the War Memorial Auditorium. He quickly became an Opry favorite.

[Dave Mudgett]

There are plenty of jam sessions, back-porch pickin and so on through the Appalachians, but I imagine a "village" of that would be a tourist thing. Back when Opryland was running in the 70s, they had a cabin set up with people like Bashful Brother Oswald Kirby and Charlie Collins pickin - sometimes Roy Acuff and others would be hangin' out there. It was pretty cool, but definitely a tourist thing. That theme park was closed a long time ago.

So their cultural stamp (and music) extends all across the Southeast and Southwest, and also includes the rural Southern portions of such "Northern" states as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri, and in dilute form up through the Northwest, even into Canada and Alaska. ... So, yes, you can find real backporch Old Time and Bluegrass pickers in Eastern Kentucky and North Carolina, but also in Indiana.

... and also in the wilds of Central and Western Pennsylvania, and when I lived there, southern Ohio. Around here, old-time, bluegrass, and traditional (heavily leaning on acoustic) country are routinely mixed in jam sessions and back-porch pickin, and some of em are happy to have a steel guitar (amp and everything) join in. Not very "purist bluegrass", but fun. The Appalachians extend right from the upper GA and AL, the Carolinas, Tennessee, Kentucky, and the Virginias right up through PA and lower upstate NY, and then the northern tier through New England. The Scots-Irish influence is very strong throughout this region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_music

I play periodically in a band that mixes old-time country (Carter Family, Uncle Dave Macon, Possum Hunters, and so on) with classic (mostly late 40s to early 60s) country music. To some, this may sound like a strange mix up here in the northeast, but this band frequently gets pretty good crowds. In particular, old-time music has a pretty good following among quite a few younger listeners because it is so unpretentious and honest, and a lot of it is great dancing music.

[Alan Brookes]

...I've always imagined there's a little village somewhere where you can see a bunch of old folk picking bluegrass on their porches...

Well, I sit out on my deck and pick the banjo from time to time. But I'm in Oakland, California, and I was born in Birmingham*, so, I guess, that bursts the bubble a little.

*that's the original Birmingham, not the three latter-day replicas.

[David Doggett]

Scott, I believe you are right that the baseball team wasn't a separate thing, but was made up of the pickers. I remember seeing an old photo of them in front of the bus wearing baseball uniforms. Seems like they played local teams as part of the show. I do remember reading that he had a steel player, but don't know anything about that. Maybe someone on the Forum knows. My point was that in some of the early years things were more fluid in terms of style and instrumentation than the orthodox Bluegrass pickers of today would have us believe.

I found myself standing next to Bill Monroe at the snack bar at a festival back in the '70s, and I asked him why he didn't use a Dobro player. He said it was because through a lot of years he couldn't afford that many guys in the band.

Oh, yeah, and in terms of the Bluegrass revival of the '60s, let's not forget The Dillards from your home state of Arkansas.

[David Doggett]

Alan, speaking of California Bluegrass pickers, that reminds me that when I lived in Nashville in the'70s, there were several great pickers who had come there from California. One of them was Woody Herman's daughter, who played great Old Time and Bluegrass fiddle. They were some of the pickers who helped the Station Inn get started. It was originally over by Centennial Park, across Westend Ave. from Vanderbilt. A big portion of the audience back then was middle and upper class college kids from Vanderbilt - not exactly toothless hillbillies in overalls.

[Rick Campbell]

I found myself standing next to Bill Monroe at the snack bar at a festival back in the '70s, and I asked him why he didn't use a Dobro player. He said it was because through a lot of years he couldn't afford that many guys in the band.

That was a polite answer, but as a former Bluegrass Boy, I believe Bill had other reasons. Probably the same reason the Country Gentlemen and Seldom Scene were not into fiddles. Some things just don't fit. Maybe they fit some songs, but not enough to be a regular band instrument.

Alan, I played the Grass Valley Festival in Northern CA, when I was with Del McCoury. That's a big bluegrass event.

[Alan Brookes]

In my generation we seemed to get most of our musical education from the radio and records. That being so, you could get as much exposure to Bluegrass in England as we could in the U.S. I remember in 1976, while living in England, I was on a train from Atlanta to New Orleans and I struck up a conversation with a fellow from Virginia who was struggling with some chords on a mandolin. I ended up giving him some pointers, and I thought at the time how ironic it was that, here I was, an Englishman, teaching a guy how to play his own folk music.

[Ronnie Boettcher]

I will add my 2 cents. Listen to some of the Osborne Brothers songs. Hal Rugg fits his steel right into them. I am also a 3-finger Scruggs style banjo picker, and singer. Up by me, there is a weekly bluegrass open jam, at a Methodist church, in Lafayette, Ohio. They attract over 200 people, with about 40 pickers. A $2 admission is charged if you pick or listen. All the sunday school rooms and the main church, has music being played from 7 to 11. Now, I want to tell brothers, Stephen, Rick, Scott, and any other brothers, that I am also a Traveling Man. Ronnie

[Scott Shipley]

Yeah David, funny how the music kinda came second to the show, he realized the marketing factor way before many of his contemporaries. Rick's right, Bill wasn't a fan of dobro, mostly because of the Flatt n Scruggs thing. He called up Ott Devine and told him "if you don't fire those two, I'll quit the Opry!" At which point a very quick thinking Mr. Devine assured him that their sound was completely different than his, as they had one of them Hawaiian guitars. Uncle Josh saves the Opry!

And btw, The Dillards are from Missouri, as am I.

But I do have one tooth missing, and I wear overalls!

It's ok, we can meet for an adult beverage in the peace lounge at the ISGC in a few weeks!

[Mac McGhee]

This is pic that was taken in Galax, Va., not to long ago. The big guy on the right won 2nd place for a song he wrote. His name is Dave Marino.
As has been stated that the area through Galax down into Wilkes county NC and across to Bristol, Tennessee is a good place for the Hillbillies and Bluegrass.
When I was a kid I would sit on the sidewalk when I we got to go to town on Saturday and watch Flatt & Scruggs, Chubby Wise, Jim and Jesse, Mac Wiseman. They would play on a show at WCYB in Bristol called Farm and Fun time. Noon everyday during the week. The guys would have their cases open and people would drop change in them. It would be in front of Holston Hardware and Morrell's Music Store on East State Street.

[Mac McGhee]

I am from a small community in Eastern Tennessee called Holston Valley. It is about 15 miles in the country from Bristol, Tennessee. I knew Bill Monroe and many in that area knew him well. He had a farm in Va. and also in Kentucky I think he had one. I do know that if you worked for Bill Monroe and wasn't on tour or something he had work for you on the farm. Ralph Standly was also a farmer. Bill Monroe was not the nicest man I ever met and certainly not the nicest to work on his farm. We were sharechoppers and I work with my dad and brother's on many of those farms, around Coburn,St Paul, Castlewood Va. Bill would tell anyone what he thought very quick and made no difference who you were. I left that part of the country at 17 and went into the service. I go back about every two years or so. Bill has played in areas where I lived but I wouldn't spend a nickel to go see him. Some memories die hard.

[Mac McGhee]

Rick: I have to agree with you on some points you made. However, the old tradional was played in our homes growing up. Songs about real life and just how we did live. Knoxville was considered when I was young to be like Dallas is to some today. Being raised in the mountains and playing of music was a way of life for us sitting on the porch in the spring and summer evenings. You could hear everything from tradional, hillbilly and gospel. You could laugh and have fun with the tradional and hillbilly but don't even smile when the gospel was played by anyone. The tradions of music in that part of the country has died away and yes Bill took a lot with him. Dolly Pardon's song Tennessee Mountain Home is very real in my mind. Also, the Stoneman's were from Galax area and their music was about real things. I think we would disagee on Bill Monroe. He was IMO one thing on stage but totally different in private.

[Andrew Roblin]

Well, there is a city--Winnipeg, in Manitoba, Canada--where I grew up as a hippie bluegrass banjo player. People there still do that there, and I think it's nice.

My friends and I played on porches in summer and in living rooms through the long winters. No hillbillies on the Canadian prairies, but plenty of hippies.

[Rick Campbell]

Rick: I have to agree with you on some points you made. However, the old tradional was played in our homes growing up. Songs about real life and just how we did live. Knoxville was considered when I was young to be like Dallas is to some today. Being raised in the mountains and playing of music was a way of life for us sitting on the porch in the spring and summer evenings. You could hear everything from tradional, hillbilly and gospel. You could laugh and have fun with the tradional and hillbilly but don't even smile when the gospel was played by anyone. The tradions of music in that part of the country has died away and yes Bill took a lot with him. Dolly Pardon's song Tennessee Mountain Home is very real in my mind. Also, the Stoneman's were from Galax area and their music was about real things. I think we would disagee on Bill Monroe. He was IMO one thing on stage but totally different in private.

Mac, you missed the point. Bluegrass music is not about the sitting on the porch picking. That's Old Time and Mountain music. Bill didn't take that with him. I grew up in the mountains of East TN. Sneedville, (home of Jimmy Martin)so I'm familiar with all these areas you mentioned.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Mr. Monroe. I worked for him and I always found him to be easy to get along with. I have heard all the stories about him being a slave driver too.

I always considered Ralph Stanley, and the Stanley Brothers, to be more mountain music than bluegrass.

WCYB Bristol. I was on a game show called Kiddie College there when I was eight years old. Our team won for several weeks and then got defeated. They used to do the March Of Times telethon on WCYB and they would have a lot of local talent. I don't think they do that anymore.

[Mac McGhee]

Rick: I agree to disagree with you and to me this is what this forum is about to learn and get input and no not always will people agree.
I didn't miss your point on Bill Monroe. My sentence structure on that one stunk. I agree with the Bluegrass not being as I described on sitting on the front porch.Helping keep Bluegrass on the front burner is IMO is one of the many things he took with him and a lot of song yet to be written. Mountain Music and Hillbilly music can be heard still in that part of the country (Shady Valley, Mountain City and the surrounding areas).
I don't know how Bill Monroe was to work for on his shows and I wouldn't dare to try and say what I don't know. All I can go on is the way he was with people that had the misfortune to work for him in his hayfields, corn and tobacco patch.
The way of life in East Tennessee hasn't changed that much since I left when we talk of the older people there. My age and up. Doyle Lawson lives in that area now and goes to church where I did as a kid. Doyle does the music of Mountain people and Bluegrass. I doubt anyone would say he is all bluegrass. In his East Tn. way Doyle knows the music he was raised with and hasn't strayed from it. I like to call it my music, just as much as Ernest Tubb and Ray Price is my music.

[Mac McGhee]

Dave I was talking to a friend in Wilkes county Va. and this is the email I got back. We have a site for retired Drill Instuctor's and that is where we email each other. I thought it might interest you.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Mariano <dmarianosr>
To: militarytrainingins tructors@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 6:37:44 PM
Subject: [Military Training Instructors] Re: Capt Dave pic


Mac, this past week was the 74th Galax Old Fiddlers Convention. This is one of, if not the largest Fiddlers in the Eastern US. Pickers, and listeners, and beer drinkers from all over the world converge on poor little Galax and compete, pick, listen, and drink for a solid week. Everything from Old Time to modern Bluegrass. Lots of fun, but the late nights took their toll on this old man. "Dave the Exhausted"