Do you GFI Ultra players experience detuning tendencies ?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 23 Jun 2009 10:40 am

I think the connection between tone and detuning only relates to body flex and resonance, not so much the fit of machanical parts. This is just something that Bobbye Seymour mentioned once. I have no real opinion on it. Mechanical fit and tolerances do not relate only to rattling. For example the changer axle and finger joints have to have a certain clearance to move freely. That tiny slack could theoretically cause detuning as more tension is applied due to raises. There is also the possibility of flex in the axle. Likewise slack and flex in roller nut axles and tuning posts could theoretically cause detuning. These sources have been proposed to account for a certain amount of detuning that is not the result of body flex. Likewise, any looseness in the attachment of the changer block, the keyhead, or keyless tuner assembly can cause detuning. Because these individually tiny sources all add up, it is very difficult to completely eliminate detuning.

I can hear differences in the 3-5 cents range if I listen carefully; and of course you can detect less than that if you are counting beats. But I agree with the rule of thumb that less than 5 cents is not noticeable on the fly while actually playing music, especially in a group. The warmth of your hands on the strings can change things that much, not to mention the weight and pressure of your hands and bar. Of course the less detuning the better, right down to zero. But obsessing over differences less than 5 cents may be futile and is in the realm of diminishing returns.

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 5 Jul 2009 3:07 pm

Got my Ultra back from MO. They did a proper setup on it and the cabinet drop is completely workable now.
I don't remember for sure but I think it was around 30 cents with A+F before and now it's under 6.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 5 Jul 2009 5:14 pm

John, thanks for the info.

Although I think 6 cents is a bit high, and an S12 probably will have more body drop than an S10 because there are more strings on some pulls, I'll keep the GFI Ultra S12 on my shortlist for now. Properly set it is probably as good as most.

First I'm gonna check up on a custom S12 steel that is said to have below 1 cent detuning, and see, hear and measure it that one holds up on its promise, and if it otherwise sounds and works as I want.
In case anyone wonders; it's a WBS ULTIMATE

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 31 Jul 2009 4:13 am

FYI; I've finally gotten around to test out a WBS Ultimate, and it does indeed have inaudible detuning. Even when stressed, bodydrop is only measurable with instruments that can clearly reveal the minutest variations in the below 1 cent range. Pedal steels don't come any better than that.
That the WBS Ultimate also comes with the overall quality, tone and playability I'm after, makes it a clear No.1 on my list.

Since many steelers evaluate a steel by its look, I'll just mention that the WBS Ultimate is first class in that department too, both on the outside and on the inside.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Jul 2009 2:33 pm

I've never played an Expo, but my Ultra has NO detuning/cabinet drop. Absolutely zero.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 31 Jul 2009 2:46 pm

... my Ultra has NO detuning/cabinet drop. Absolutely zero.

Under what string/pedal tension/tuning are you getting zero detuning?

I ask because what you say is impossible on any commercially available E9 rigged steel with regular Emmons/Day copedent today.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Jul 2009 4:43 pm

I ask because what you say is impossible on any commercially available E9 rigged steel with regular Emmons/Day copedent today.

If you bothered to read the entire thread you'd answer your own question.

And why did you ask the question if you want to argue with answers? Your argument is a supposed statement of fact.

Prove it.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 31 Jul 2009 6:43 pm

Make sure all of the undercarriage parts are tight on the GFI, such as bellcranks, etc. I've never had a tuning problem with any GFI. In my opinion, GFI is one of the best built guitars on the market. If I wasn't playing a Rittenberry right now that's probably what I would be playing. Thanks.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 31 Jul 2009 6:45 pm

Prove it.

Measure it, on any pedal steel. Using a proper instrument you will find some detuning.

My reason for stressing the detuning issue, is that there seems to be a very wide spread in what people say. Maybe the ability to hear minute tonal variations and beating varies enough from person to person to explain the spread, or something else is at play. Only way (I know) to find out what's causing the spread in responses to my original question, and get through to the facts, is to dig deeper and ask again.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Jul 2009 9:49 pm

Quote:
Prove it.

Measure it, on any pedal steel. Using a proper instrument you will find some detuning.

Go back and read my posts please.

You're asking a question, arguing with answers but providing no reasoning for your arguments, then suggesting the "proper" tools be used.

You're not reading the answers to your own question. Your opening post (the tail end):

I'd me mighty happy if some GFI steelers/owners will chime in with their experience, as I certainly don't want to buy a new instrument that has built-in detuning problems. Can't believe a steel like GFI Ultra with keyless should come with such problems, but I don't want to pay a lot of money and wait several months just to find out that it does and has to be scrapped or fixed.

So my question is: do any of you GFI Ultra E9/Universal steelers/owners experience any audible, or measurable, (however small) detuning of any strings when you push pedals/levers for other strings?

You got the answers you asked for - then said they were wrong. Combined with your dissing of the GFI sales force(and/or instruments) you encountered it sounds like trolling to me.

You got your answer and I refuse to argue about test results with someone who has not performed the same tests on the same instruments.

Good luck.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 31 Jul 2009 11:28 pm

Thank you.

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · Post by **Chuck Snider R.I.P.** » 1 Aug 2009 12:24 pm

I have a GFI U-12 like you're thinking of buying. I have never noticed any issues with cabinet drop on this guitar. I bought it new, and received it last October, and out of curosity I did check it once shortly after I got it. Yes, there was a slight amount of deflection, but it was slight enough that I did not worry about it after checking it that time. I do not want to lead you to believe there is no drop at all on the U-12, or that it is so negligible that one (particularly you in this case) cannot actually hear it. In my case I do not hear it, and likely never will. In your case it might be enough that you notice it. I felt it so slight I quit worrying about it, and just focused on playing. I couldn't be any happier with this guitar! I hope that helped.

-Chuck

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Aug 2009 2:30 pm

Chuck, and Billy, thanks a lot. Your responses help clearing things up quite a bit.

I know the GFI is good - otherwise it wouldn't have been on my short-list. FYI; there was only two brands on that list at first: GFI and Jackson, and I never got around to check if I could get a Shot Jackson Commemorative Sd12U built to my specifications or how long I would have to wait for delivery of one.

Problem was detuning, which I'm sensitive to. Normal expansion/contraction of body and strings with temperature etc. isn't a problem, I'm used to that. But, inherent constructional weaknesses in the instrument - that strings that are not directly affected by some pedals/levers detune when these pedals/levers are pressed, throws my focus off of playing. I simply can't stand it.

After having read all responses on this thread, and a few mails on the subject, I have concluded that a good, well-balanced, GFI 12U will probably have around 5 cents detuning/body-drop. With that in mind I kept looking for something better in this respect, that also has the tone and playability I am after.

I have found, and tested, the WBS Ultimate I mentioned a few posts above, and it is in the below 1 cents drop class, sounds excellent, and is a dream to play.
Needless to say it is a bit heavier than the GFI, around 24 kg for a WBS Sd12U, and the WBS costs more. Neither bother me much, so if I can get the WBS built to my specifications - something I'm discussing with the builder now, it's a clear winner.

If the WBS project fails for whatever reason, I still have the GFI that I can buy and "stiffen up" until it works for me, and maybe I can get around to check up on the Jackson too. Always good to have options.

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 3 Aug 2009 10:29 am

You could always put a compensator on most brands pretty easily if the drop drives you too crazy.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 3 Aug 2009 11:32 am

John,
I use compensators for "just intonation", but a steel that detunes audible while pushing pedals, is simply too weak.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 3 Aug 2009 12:33 pm

Georg, even if it detunes audibly while pushing pedals, compensators will still work. I am talking here about a simple compensator..rod to the errant string. I believe this is done all the time.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 3 Aug 2009 1:09 pm

Bent,
of course it is possible. On most steels I would run out of pulls before getting it right though. I rather use those pulls for regular raise/lower, split tuning and "just intonation".

I know of only one cure for audible detuning/bodydrop, and that is to stabilize the construction of the instrument to keep string tension constant on strings that should stay unaffected when pedals are pushed.

Note that I've already got one steel that is made stable enough, and I have tested one other in that "no audible detuning" class. Different construction methods, but they're both rigid enough where it counts. I see no point in accepting anything less now.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 3 Aug 2009 2:12 pm

Georg, Sure you can build anything solid enough to eliminate cab drop but the idea is to balance weight and rigidity. If you want to lug around 20lbs extra, sure, fine. Lower weight is really important in today's steels..if you build one to gig with that is. For home use it's not that important.

By the way, isn't a triple raise/lower mech enough to make room for compensators also?

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 3 Aug 2009 3:03 pm

Bent,
rigidity doesn't equal weight. If it did, then my old, converted, Dekley should weigh less than your new BenRom. According to your info my Dekley weigh a pound or so less, and has less bodydrop and more pedal-pull. I could shave off maybe 5lbs more without affecting rigidity, but it would possibly affect tone negatively so I won't.

If I want to keep my copedent as is, then a tripple raise/lower does not really leave room for "detuning error" compensators.
There's not even room for all "just intonation" compensators, so I had to modify the mechanics to give room for a "rod shortening compensator"

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 3 Aug 2009 3:06 pm

Georg, my BenRom weighs 38.7 lbs (16.8 kg)
As I remember your Dekley is a single? Mine's a SD

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 3 Aug 2009 3:28 pm

Bent,
you're right, I read the weight for what I now guess is your regular, old, steel - 17.6kg. My Dekley S10 tips the scale at 17.0kg with all the added mechanics and rigid neck.

Since the body isn't what gives my steel its tone and makes it rigid, I guess I could shave a couple of kilo off that without hurting it one bit.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 3 Aug 2009 3:45 pm

I wonder why, back in the day, we never once heard a steel out of tune on a record. This was in the days before compensators were invented, before tuners, before the big worry about cabinet drop. How did the old pickers do it back then? They only had the bar to compensate with. Maybe a lot of it is just unnecessary hype, salesmanship if you want...Buy X brand man..only 1 cent cab drop as opposed to 3 on Y brand.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 3 Aug 2009 5:48 pm

They adjusted, or masked, with the bar, same as we do now, and used their ears as tuners - same as at least I do now. With less pedal pulls back in the days, they also had less detuning problems.

I'm not quite in line with you when it comes to...

back in the day, we never once heard a steel out of tune on a record

...as I've heard enough "slightly out of tune" steels on recordings over the years. It just never bothered me.
Along the same line: tempered instruments are frequently sounding somewhat out of tune compared to natural scales, but I still like to listen to well-played piano and other tempered instruments.

Personally I don't care what salesmen or others say about such matters - or anything really, unless I can verify it one way or another - which is why I started this thread. Since I'm only trying to find the best solution to something I personally see, or rather hear, as a problem, I won't pitch brands. Brands/models are only presented in this thread because it is unavoidable.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 5 Aug 2009 8:00 pm

I worked on a GFI Ultra Keyless SD-10 about a year ago for a local friend. He uses the "short Uni" tuning, so when you push the splits, you're moving five of the ten strings...three G#'s to A, and two B's to C#. Unless you build a guitar out of railroad track, you'll find some torque-induced de-tuning. In this case it amounted to 3-4 cents. The returns were amazingly accurate. I showed the owner how to tune his raises a couple cents flat (he had been tuning them dead-on), tuned his guitar for him that way, and had him make a chart. End of problem.
The only other problem the owner encountered on the guitar was the RKR which drops his E's, was a bit stiff and the travel was short. I reset his ratios and again, end of problem.
This is just routine stuff. IMO the Ultra is one very fine instrument. It's easy to work on, light as a feather, tone to the bones, and repetitive mechanically. What more does a guy need?
PRR

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 5 Aug 2009 8:06 pm

Some guys are brutal to their pedals. I have a friend who is very "lead-footed" with his guitars...unnecessarily "lead-footed". That DOES pull the rack upward and the cabinet downward, and it can deflect the travel-stopping means. You can't drive your guitar like it's a gravel truck and expect it to respond like a Rolls-Royce.
PRR

The Steel Guitar Forum

Do you GFI Ultra players experience detuning tendencies ?

Found a steel with no detuning.

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