Do You Temper Tune Your Lap Steel?

[Doug Beaumier]

I think we're discussing two different kinds of 3-note slants here? In my opening post I was referring to the "bar nose" slants, like the second one shown below. That one is easier to play (sounds more in tune) with ET than with JI, in my opinion. The first slant shown works better with JI. Go figure!

I tuned both necks of my Stringmaster to C6, one ET and the other JI to experiment with slanting and temperament. What about scale length? How does that figure into the ET/JI issue with regard to these slants? My Stringmaster is 22 1/2" scale length.

[tab]
C6 Tuning

D7 (no 5th)

E----8----- (7b)
C----------
A----9----- (3rd)
G----------
E----10---- (root)
C----------


D7 (no root)

E---------------
C------9-------- (5th)
A------9-------- (3rd)
G---------------
E------8-------- (7b)
C---------------
[/tab]

[b0b]

I was assuming 3-fret slants on adjacent strings in my tests, because that's what Matt said he was using.

[David Doggett]

I'll let you guys figure out the 3-string slants. I don't play a lot of lap steel, and hardly ever use 3-string slants when I do. It's amazing that any of them work, given that the fret spacing is not designed for that. Their intonation is so complicated, especially when you consider different inversions and bar-nose slants, I would expect both JI and ET to have some sounding better, and others worse. Since pure major and minor 3rds go in opposite directions, it's hard for me to imagine that what helps one also helps the other, unless it simply moves both in toward ET. Is that what happens with ET tuning on 3-string slants?

As for concerts and various instruments, there is definitely psychological conditioning involved. When I play piano, I expect it to sound ET and am completely use to that. But when I play steel, I can't take it, alone or in a group. I think we are all definitely accustomed to hearing guitars slightly out of tune (that is, not pure JI). But while guitar players may tune straight up ET, many of them then tweak by ear toward JI. They will often retweak for songs in different keys. They also manipulate intonation with whammy bars and by pulling the strings as they finger them. So, many experienced guitar players to some extent intonate toward JI even if they ostensibly tune ET. Horns, strings and vocalists definitely play and sing close to JI.

For steel, both JI and ET will have some chords sounding better, and others worse. It becomes a matter of which are used more often and are more important. It generally seems better to have the straight-bar tonic of whatever key you are in close to JI, because everything keeps resolving back to that, and it is the place where being out of tune is least tolerable. Other chords are less used, not held as long, are passing chords, have more dissonant close intervals (whether JI or ET), etc., so being slightly out of tune is more tolerable with them. It's all very personal. The genre also matters. ET is more tolerable, and maybe more necessary for complex jazz chords. But JI works better for the simpler chords of country and folk. Hawaiian, may be a toss up. But it's hard to argue with the beautiful intonation Jerry Byrd got tuning JI by ear.

Buddy Emmons is a difficult case to figure. He tuned JI by ear and harmonics most of his recording career. Although he moved closer to ET in his later career, he made conflicting comments on how he tuned his major 3rds. Sometimes he said he tuned them a couple of cents flat, which seems hardly worth fiddling with, even for someone with a fine ear like his. Other times he said a couple of Hz flat (8 cents), and specifically said 438, which is actually slightly closer to JI than ET, and is similar to how many steelers compromise by tuning "in between."

Although most steelers (pedal and lap) seem to tune close to JI by ear (and I think that is what we are use to hearing on recordings and in concerts), there are differing opinions even among the top pros. So the rest of us really just have to try it all and decide for ourselves.

[Doug Beaumier]

Since pure major and minor 3rds go in opposite directions, it's hard for me to imagine that what helps one also helps the other, unless it simply moves both in toward ET. Is that what happens with ET tuning on 3-string slants?

David, I don't know enough about it to answer your question, but a couple of things come to mind. Some of the 3-string slants omit the root. So maybe when a player is playing alone, and he plays a slant where the third of the chord is very flat, but there is no root present in the chord, the slant may not sound so "out of tune". However, when playing with a track or with other musicians, the root will be played by the other instruments and the steel player's slant will be noticeably out of tune. As far as ET and slants... I tuned ET on lap steel for many years (but always JI on pedal steel)... and I got used to the bar angle, the bar placement for 3-string slants, in particular, the nose of the bar covering two strings and the back of the bar on a lower string. Recently I started tuning JI on lap steel and I find that the straight-bar chords and two string harmonies are more in tune with tracks, but the positioning for the slants is different. I am beginning to think... through this thread and through woodshedding... that it is possible to play 3-string slants in tune when tuned JI. It's a matter of breaking old habits and learning to place the bar and the nose in a slightly different position.

I was surprised when I heard that Buddy Emmons is now tuning straight up 440, after so many years (I assume) of tuning JI. One time when I saw him... 1977 I think... between songs he asked the band if anyone had "a real E". Then he proceeded to tweak his tuning by ear. I've also seen Herb Remington and Jerry Byrd do that. I too did that the first few years I played steel... a tuning fork for the E note and the rest by ear. We didn't have much choice! I got my first electronic tuner in the late '70s. Korg: $240. That would be about $600 in today's money.

[Eddie Cunningham]

Years ago in the 40s pretty much every band had an accordion player that gave an E note and we tuned to that !! The accordion used reeds and they vibrated funny and you could be up here or down there but I guess we sounded pretty close to being in tune and the "people" never could tell the difference anyway !! Those were the good old days !!! Any of you old guys remember "accordions" ??? Eddie "C"

[Doug Beaumier]

Years ago in the 40s pretty much every band had an accordion player that gave an E note and we tuned to that !! The accordion used reeds and they vibrated funny and you could be up here or down there...

Good grief! Tuning to an accordion? that would be enough to make me quit playing.

I remember bands, including some I was with, in the pre-tuner days, tuning up between songs. There was always some loud guitar player who would spend two minutes trying to tune his guitar and everyone in the audience could hear it. What a drag. Thank goodness those days are over.

[Mike Neer]

I was surprised when I heard that Buddy Emmons is now tuning straight up 440, after so many years (I assume) of tuning JI. One time when I saw him... 1977 I think... between songs he asked the band if anyone had "a real E". Then he proceeded to tweak his tuning by ear. I've also seen Herb Remington and Jerry Byrd do that. I too did that the first few years I played steel... a tuning fork for the E note and the rest by ear. We didn't have much choice! I got my first electronic tuner in the late '70s. Korg: $240. That would be about $600 in today's money.

That's really the way I still prefer to tune. If I use my tuner, I get the E squared away and go from there. Is that JI?

[Doug Beaumier]

If I use my tuner, I get the E squared away and go from there. Is that JI?

Yes, that's Just Intonation (JI), tuning by ear to flatten the 3rds and the 6th (usually).

And when you tune everything to 440 (0.00) on your tuner it's called Equal Temper (ET).

[Mike Neer]

It's funny, because all my life I've relied on my ears for tuning my guitars, never owned a tuner until about 5 years ago. When I see the subject of JI vs. ET my eyes just glaze over. It's no wonder I dropped out of Engineering....

[Matt Berg]

I think we're discussing two different kinds of 3-note slants here?

]

Doug, actually, three different slants. I am too much of a spazz to reliably pull off either the reverse slant or the bar nose that you tabbed out. The slant I meant that B0b confirmed is more likely to be in tune in ET than JI is the R 3 5 triad slanted one note for the middle string and 2 notes for the top string to become a IV chord, that would be 5 R 3. Let's see if I can draw this right:

X
X
X
5
3
R

X
X
X
__3
_R
5

where R=root of the chord (1). I do this slant a lot, and used to tune my 6th chord R36R35 instead of R356R3 to put this triad on the top. Again, coming from a non steel guitar background, I liken this change to the E bar form and A bar form, for you electric guitar players out there in steel land.

No one's brought up that I conveniently ignore the fact that the second inversion chord formed by this slant is somewhat dissonant according to the standards of classical harmony. The non-inverted triad is made up of 3rds, but the second inversion contains a 4th (5 => R). I guess I don't worry about it because I figure that other lower pitched instruments (bass, rhythm guitar) are supplying the Root note in a lower octave than me. For solo playing, it could be a bit dissonant.

David, your point about fret spacing is correct, except that the frets are just lines, not actual frets and can be bypassed. For the slant mentioned above, I do tend to need to put the bar a little beyond where the top string lines up with the fret marker. That is, I slant it a little more than the fret markers would suggest is necessary.

Playing out at a party yesterday I tuned ET as usual. Yeah, I meant to try JI, but there was a lot going on to get set up and ready to go, and not too much time. No one shot me the out-of-tune evil eye, and a lot of different folks sat in with both ET type instruments (mandolin) and JI (sax).

This slanted chord form still works for me. I would just repeat that it seems to have a slightly different "color" than the non-slanted chord, likely due to innaccuracies in my ability to slant it perfectly, but also the slight differences in the intervals due to the chord inversion being tempered differently as documented earlier in this thread.

Sliding this slanted chord up 2 frets to complete a I => IV => V chord change is also part of my repertoire. I like this sound a lot. And dropping back down to the non-slanted I chord over all that distance can sound swoopy and kind of dramatic. Does anybody else out there use this slant frequently? I thought it was a basic popular slant...

[Matt Berg]

I was surprised when I heard that Buddy Emmons is now tuning straight up 440, after so many years (I assume) of tuning JI. One time when I saw him... 1977 I think... between songs he asked the band if anyone had "a real E". Then he proceeded to tweak his tuning by ear. I've also seen Herb Remington and Jerry Byrd do that. I too did that the first few years I played steel... a tuning fork for the E note and the rest by ear. We didn't have much choice! I got my first electronic tuner in the late '70s. Korg: $240. That would be about $600 in today's money.

Pure conjecture here, but it's worth noting that the state of the art for tuners has improved a lot since the 70's, especially affordable ones (not talking Petersons, here). Tuners back then were notorious tone suckers, didn't always have a mute or bypass option, and sometimes were only able to tune the 5 notes of the electric guitar rather than all of the notes of the scale. Tuning to a reference A other than 440 was not often an option. And frequently you had to set the tuner for the note you wanted to tune, which was a huge hassle if it was on the floor.

Maybe some players have moved to ET, or tuning to ET and then adjusting their tuning simply because it's a more pragmatic option than in the past.

[Twayn Williams]

The only one I use regularly is the JB cliche minor on the top 3 strings of C6th.

Please elucidate. What is this cliche minor move???

[Charley Wilder]

It's funny, because all my life I've relied on my ears for tuning my guitars, never owned a tuner until about 5 years ago. When I see the subject of JI vs. ET my eyes just glaze over. It's no wonder I dropped out of Engineering....

I hear you, Mike! This thread has been kind of confusing to me. I never knew there was that much to it!

[Andy Volk]

My eyes have been glazing over at forum discussions on this subject for more than 10 years!

[b0b]

The only one I use regularly is the JB cliche minor on the top 3 strings of C6th.

Please elucidate. What is this cliche minor move???

The first 3 strings of the C6th are a minor chord. The first inversion of the minor chord can be found as a forward slant on the same 3 strings, 3 frets higher.

Example:
Em at 7th fret: notes E G B
Em at 10th, 11th, 12th fret: notes G B E

Those same notes are also the top end of an A9th chord, which was a common substitution for A7th back in the day. Jerry Byrd often swooped from one inversion to the other on country hit records. It was a very identifiable element of his original style back then.

[Twayn Williams]

The only one I use regularly is the JB cliche minor on the top 3 strings of C6th.

Please elucidate. What is this cliche minor move???

The first 3 strings of the C6th are a minor chord. The first inversion of the minor chord can be found as a forward slant on the same 3 strings, 3 frets higher.

Example:
Em at 7th fret: notes E G B
Em at 10th, 11th, 12th fret: notes G B E

Those same notes are also the top end of an A9th chord, which was a common substitution for A7th back in the day. Jerry Byrd often swooped from one inversion to the other on country hit records. It was a very identifiable element of his original style back then.

Thanks!

[Doug Freeman]

Hey, thanks for posting these. I haven't been very methodical or looked beyond my nose for various chord voicings on 6-string C6. Nice that both of these are centered around the V chord of the 7th chord in question--makes 'em easy to find. On the second voicing, with my tuning method (JI, I guess) I'm finding a slight ring finger tug on the A string helps bring the 3rd into pitch. Same thing, only more of it, on the first voicing gives a nice pedal steel sus4 effect.

In my opening post I was referring to the "bar nose" slants, like the second one shown below. That one is easier to play (sounds more in tune) with ET than with JI, in my opinion. The first slant shown works better with JI. Go figure!

[tab]
C6 Tuning

D7 (no 5th)

E----8----- (7b)
C----------
A----9----- (3rd)
G----------
E----10---- (root)
C----------


D7 (no root)

E---------------
C------9-------- (5th)
A------9-------- (3rd)
G---------------
E------8-------- (7b)
C---------------
[/tab]

[Doug Beaumier]

In general I prefer tuning JI... but I recently experienced one of it's drawbacks.

On C6 tuning, the 9th chord fragment two frets below the 6th chord is slightly out of tune when tuned JI:
[tab]
G6 G9

E------------7-(3rd)-----------5-(9th)----
C------------7-(root)----------5-(7b)-----
A------------7-(6th)-----------5-(5th)----
G------------7-(5th)----------------------
E-----------------------------------------
C-----------------------------------------
[/tab]
The G6 sounds perfectly in tune with JI (flatted 3rd, flatted 6th )

But when the bar moves to fret 5 to play the G9 fragment... while the track (the band) plays G or G7 or G9... ouch! it’s painful. String 1 becomes the 9th tone of the G and it’s tuned way flat of what the 9th should be. It sounds out of tune with string 2 which is now the 7b tone of the G chord. It's not really noticeable if you're playing alone, but it sounds pretty bad with a track. The only fix is a slight forward slant on string 1, or a string pull with the finger.

Neither JI nor ET will sound perfectly in tune in All positions. I guess the only thing to do is split the difference, or choose one or the other depending on the style and the chords you like to play, and just live with the drawbacks.

[tab]
C6 6-string lap steel

Note / Cent Offset

E -03.9
C +09.8
A -05.9
G +07.9
E -03.9
C +09.8


C6 6-lap steel with Equally tempered root

Note / Cent Offset

E -13.7
C +00.0
A -15.7
G -01.9
E -13.7
C +00.0
[/tab]

[b0b]

I disagree, Doug. The E and A strings in JI will be tuned to the 5th interval. The open notes are flat of ET, but the interval is correct whether you use it in a G6th or a G9th chord. You just have to place your bar a bit sharp of the fret for minor or 9th chords, where the 3rd string is acting as a root or 5th of the chord.

In JI, the b7 interval is sharp of ET. That's exactly what happens on your G9th chord when you place the bar sharp of the 5th fret.

I use these 9th triad positions all the time and they never sound out of tune to me. It's all in where you place the bar.

And lastly, the average of the C, E and G numbers should be 0 (add them up and divide by 3). That will make the major chords sound in tune with all other instruments when the bar is right on the fret. I think you need to subtract 4.6 from all of your JI numbers. Either that or aim a bit flat for major chords.

[Doug Beaumier]

I'll try tinkering with the JI numbers, and experimenting more with slants and bar placement to see what I can come up with.