Why G# on top?

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 26 Jun 2009 12:39 am

James: I'm not sure I "get", or "buy" your comments about a 10 strings pedal steel's limitations, but that may be because I've had so much fun over the years figuring out how to overcome, or remove, limitations both on regular guitars and on steels.

- Lack of tone controls isn't a problem. Such controls just shouldn't be in the steel itself, and they should be part of the pickup matching with passive, adjustable, circuits both before and after the first active, adjustable, circuit.
If you can't find the right ready-made units through this forum's "Electronics" section or in a local music shop, then anyone with a keen ear and access to a soldering iron can fix the whole issue concerning adjustable sound-shaping and pickup-matching for less than $10 in components - and still have the unaltered sound available through a switch.

- I personally think some people put too much emphasis on being able to find, and fit, the right pickup with the right sound. Great if one finds the pickup(s) that matches ones preferences, but the sound of any somewhat decent, coiled, pickup can be altered by modifying its load over the instrument's frequency range. The sound-altering range through load for one pickup, is far greater then the difference found if one switches between all available pickups on any given, fixed, load. For a decent humbucker one can add the ability to adjust in steps or step-less from humbucker to single-coil sound as part of the load-matching.

- Getting clean 2-3 tone distortion out of a properly tuned steel (one that doesn't have any serious detuning issues) isn't a problem either. It's just a question of "just intonation" - as on a guitar, which is controlled with the bar. Filter out the extreme lows and highs before the sound-waves reach the distorting units - as part of the sound shaping and pickup matching, and a steel can go where no guitar can follow - with perfectly clean chord-distortion.

Disclaimer: I'm an electronic engineer that happens to play steel, and have spent more time with electronic sound shaping as described above than with actually playing steel, guitar, bass and whatnot over the last 40 years or so. My main issue has always been "perfectly clean and natural sound", mostly on a level where no stage-gear is even considered. So, maybe what sounds easy to me makes no sense to you.

Thought I should add my comment anyway, as I don't think it can hurt to get one on how the sound of an amplified string-instrument can be shaped and altered when some basic issues are seen and handled from an entirely different angle.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 26 Jun 2009 5:55 am

Seems to me that James is on the right track based on talking to him and hearing a little of the music he intends to use his new steel for.
The simple fact is that there are literally hundreds of options and combinations for 6-string guitar pickups and a really wide range of tone possibilities. I think he'll have a great time exploring that range and being inspired by the different textures he comes up with.
I went through a lot of the same kind of thinking when I was figuring out how I wanted to appoach PSG. For me, a conventional instrument and tuning has ended up giving me everything I need, but I can see the advantages of a non-conventional instrument.

I'll be headed up to Jim Flynn's shop next week or so to let him make my instrument even more conventional, as a matter of fact - I got those pesky bass-ackwards knee levers don'tcha know.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 26 Jun 2009 7:50 am

Wow, James. On the heels of a 7-year stint with a rock band, I couldn't disagree more with your characterization of the tones available from most pedal steels. Have you listened to Dave Ristrim, Buddy Cage, Chuck Campbell, Dan Tyack or Robert Randolph?

Here are a few of my own humble attempts, on a D-12 Williams with a Lawrence 712 pickup:

In The Space Between
Smokin'

and these, on a Sierra SD-12 with a George L's 12-1:

Pieces
On A Ledge

Maybe my taste in distortion sounds "horrible" to you, but bandmates and audiences always seemed to enjoy it. And no, I didn't use any "impedance matching device" or "pedal steel amp" - those things are not necessary to drive guitar effect pedals.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 26 Jun 2009 12:13 pm

I apologize for the use of the word "horrible". I'm a tone snob but that doesn't mean I'm "right". However I think Mr. Campbell and Mr. Randolf generally use unpleasant tones. Thin and ratty. I'm at work and using my iPhone to type this, so I'll wait to listen to your clips when I get home.

Greg Gefell · Post by **Greg Gefell** » 26 Jun 2009 12:43 pm

I have to agree with b0b on this one. You can get great distorted tones, even 2 or 3 note harmony leads on the pedal steel. I use a Ibanez TS9DX Turbo Tube Screamer and the clarity of note separation is pretty remarkable. Just intonation REALLY helps the distortion sound sweet.

Take a listen to the solo of the song "Two Hands" at this link: http://www.myspace.com/bluejimmy

Its about 2:26 in. Pedal steel through that tube screamer. I didn't happen use any pedals on the solo but it shows that the instrument/pickup/effects chain is still sonically viable and valid with a pedal steel guitar.

my $.02

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 27 Jun 2009 12:08 am

This thread has moved off topic because of a comment I made. Bob, I appreciate your help on my original question and I didn't mean to call anyone's tone "horrible".

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 3 Jul 2009 4:43 pm

So, I've talked to Jim at Lone Star and it's not too late to change my order to an 8 stringer. I still don't want 10 strings because I really don't want that narrow string spacing.

It'll cost some more bones to get an S8 over an S6, but it's less about the cost and more about the pickups. I like the idea of being able to quickly change out pickups (I figure it'll take about 10 minutes to change two pickups and get back to playing) for different sounds in the studio. The 8 stringer would have the same quick-change options, but there are simply far less 8-string pickups out there to choose from. Also, they are usually more expensive.

I've got a couple of weeks to think it over before making a final decision. Please, tell me how valuable you think those extra two strings would be.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 6 Jul 2009 2:28 pm

bump!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Jul 2009 3:29 pm

However I think Mr. Campbell and Mr. Randolf generally use unpleasant tones. Thin and ratty.

IMHO, the thin and ratty tone you hear doesn't come from their pickups (which are WORLD'S apart). I get the feeling that you, coming from a straight guitar player's background, believe that most of the tone comes from the pickup. (I know a lot of players feel that way.) I have found that's only true if you use a cheesy amp that has no tonal lattitude, or insufficient power.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 7 Jul 2009 8:08 am

James Mayer wrote: I've got a couple of weeks to think it over before making a final decision. Please, tell me how valuable you think those extra two strings would be.

Unless you've played some 8-string, I think you'll find the spacing a little awkward at first. I built up a 7 string (regular guitar spacing) early on because I specifically wanted the C6 vintage country sound. The spacing was a great transition for me, but I soon found I needed 8 strings (and Stringmaster pickups) for what I wanted to play. I bit the bullet and built up an 8 and got used to the string spacing. Now I can't play the wider 6- or 7-string spacing as comfortably.

There's no comparison in terms of pickup availability...There are some great 8-string pickups being made, but the number and variety of 6-string pickups is huge in comparison

You can't really go wrong either way, but your priorities seem to point more toward the 6 string.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 7 Jul 2009 7:12 pm

Actually, I have an 8 string lap steel with Lollar Stringmaster pickups. It's the only one of my three Fouke instruments that I've ever considered selling. Sounds great but I just don't like or need 8 strings on a lap steel. I've treating a pedal steel as a different animal. I made my final decision to get a six-string, today.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 7 Jul 2009 7:18 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:
However I think Mr. Campbell and Mr. Randolf generally use unpleasant tones. Thin and ratty.
IMHO, the thin and ratty tone you hear doesn't come from their pickups (which are WORLD'S apart). I get the feeling that you, coming from a straight guitar player's background, believe that most of the tone comes from the pickup. (I know a lot of players feel that way.) I have found that's only true if you use a cheesy amp that has no tonal lattitude, or insufficient power.

It is also likely that most of the thin distortion attempts that I hear come from a huge speaker driven by a solid state amp. I have found that pickups make a huge difference on lap steels, so why wouldn't I assume the same on pedal steels? I don't know that I believe that "most" tone comes from pickups. I think the building material and construction has plenty to do with it. I've also learned the hard way that the best amp in the world can't make a poor instrument sound decent.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 7 Jul 2009 7:52 pm

The best musical instrument in the world is your brain. Made by the best maker in the universe, it can produce great music from any guitar and amp. Don't worry too much about equipment. Develop your talent and whatever gear you encounter along the way will be just fine.

I just had to say that.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 8 Jul 2009 3:54 pm

b0b wrote:
I just had to say that.

Yeah, I know.........but I bet you (and every other experienced player on this forum) has multiple steels, multiple amps, multiple effects devices.......and has, at one time or another, searched for the "perfect" overdrive pedal. I'm just saying...........

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Jul 2009 6:53 am

Ummm, Dave Easley - a 10-string C6th, through a Mesa Boogie on "3now4":
http://steelguitarmusic.com/music/daveeasley.html

There's no guitarist or keyboards - Easley does all that, as well as solos with endless imagination - oh yeah, through a MESA BOOGIE....

Ristrim really kicks "Cause We've Ended as Lovers" and "School Days", too.
http://steelguitarmusic.com/music/daveristrim.html

Like others here, I feel as though it's not the instrument... many of the earlier country steelers just didn't take the time to craft an excellent overdrive chain (they don't like Hendrix or Beck), but it certainly can be done with what a 10-string pedal steel feeds it. Check out Jan Jonsson's solo on "Shine On You Crazy Diamond":
http://www.myspace.com/flatfivesociety

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Jul 2009 7:48 am

b0b wrote:The best musical instrument in the world is your brain. Made by the best maker in the universe, it can produce great music from any guitar and amp. Don't worry too much about equipment. Develop your talent and whatever gear you encounter along the way will be just fine.

I just had to say that.

Carve that in stone and put it on the wall for all to see. (But expect serious disagreement from most ex guitar players and push/pull or tube amp fanatics.

)

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Jul 2009 8:41 pm

David Mason wrote:Ummm, Dave Easley - a 10-string C6th, through a Mesa Boogie on "3now4":
http://steelguitarmusic.com/music/daveeasley.html

There's no guitarist or keyboards - Easley does all that, as well as solos with endless imagination - oh yeah, through a MESA BOOGIE....

Ristrim really kicks "Cause We've Ended as Lovers" and "School Days", too.
http://steelguitarmusic.com/music/daveristrim.html

Like others here, I feel as though it's not the instrument... many of the earlier country steelers just didn't take the time to craft an excellent overdrive chain (they don't like Hendrix or Beck), but it certainly can be done with what a 10-string pedal steel feeds it. Check out Jan Jonsson's solo on "Shine On You Crazy Diamond":
http://www.myspace.com/flatfivesociety

It would be nice if there were actual sound samples in those first two links to listen to.

Thomas Colvin · Post by **Thomas Colvin** » 10 Jul 2009 6:23 am

James, what do these things weigh (the 6 and the 8)? Do you know if these guys have a showroom up in Salado? That's only a spit-shot from Austin.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 10 Jul 2009 6:29 am

Thomas Colvin wrote:James, what do these things weigh (the 6 and the 8)? Do you know if these guys have a showroom up in Salado? That's only a spit-shot from Austin.

The site says the S6 weighs 17 lbs in the case. Don't know about a showroom.

Thomas Colvin · Post by **Thomas Colvin** » 10 Jul 2009 6:33 am

17 lbs?!? No wonder he has a waiting list.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 10 Jul 2009 7:50 am

Most of the photos on the site aren't very high-res. This is the best that I have found.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 10 Jul 2009 8:02 am

James Mayer wrote:It would be nice if there were actual sound samples in those first two links to listen to.

Everybody expects free music these days. That's why CDs just don't sell anymore. $:\$

Here's Dave Easley on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fUtM7erNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H35QpuAfIFw

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 10 Jul 2009 8:15 am

b0b wrote:
James Mayer wrote:It would be nice if there were actual sound samples in those first two links to listen to.
Everybody expects free music these days. That's why CDs just don't sell anymore. $:\$

Here's Dave Easley on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fUtM7erNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H35QpuAfIFw

"samples", not whole songs. No one is perusing Amazon to steal their low-quality samples that are 30 seconds at the most.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 10 Jul 2009 8:23 am

Amazon.com has considerably more bandwidth available than we have. Adding audio streaming on our T1 line would slow down the Forum quite a bit.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 10 Jul 2009 8:33 am

Bob, I'm not asking or expecting you to post sound samples. The point I was making is that David was referencing sounds to make a point. I would have to buy the CDs to decide whether or not his point was valid. I was pointing out that giving me a link to text, and text only, does not really sway me to his side of the debate.

I did listen to the myspace sample of "Shine On....". The tone was OK.