My Crazy Pipe Dream Revisited

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 30 Jun 2009 10:27 am

Last spring, I developed an idea for a single 8 copedent that, I think, can handle everything I need to play for most bandstand situations. It doesn't have the chromatic strings of the E9th or the low notes of the C6th, but it has a wide range and all of the chords. I've refined the copedent quite a bit since the original topic, and here's what I've settled on:
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It's a D6th tuning, like the standard C6th moved up a step. RKR shifts it to a Gadd9, which is like strings 4 through 11 of a U-12 moved up from E to G. Here's what each of the pedals maps to in the standard tunings:
[tab] C6 E9
LKL C-C#
LKV C-B Bb lever
LKR F lever
P1 B pedal
P2 A pedal
P3 P5
P4 P7
P5 P8
RKL P6 D string
RKR E lower lever reversed[/tab]
Also, RKR makes the dobro G open strings available, and P2+P3 opens up the E major blues/rock licks and power chords.

It remains to be seen whether this old brain can switch from Emmons to Day pedal order, and from E to G for the E9th licks. I might fall on my ass with this, but I think it will be fun ride anyway.

Chuck Back of Desert Rose Guitars is building me a custom instrument, which should be ready in July sometime.

Some U-12 players like to describe their copedent as "one big tuning". This is sort of like the core of the U-12 in one little tuning.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 30 Jun 2009 12:24 pm

You are bound and determined to get it all in just 8 strings. Are you trying to save money on strings?

I know a guy in California that will give you a great deal on strings.

Lee

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 30 Jun 2009 1:08 pm

Actually, it's because I like the wider string spacing, but having fewer strings to change is a big advantage too. 8 compared to 12, 20 or 24.

IMHO, the 8 string pedal steel never got a fair shake. By the time that changers evolved to triple raise/lower, D-10 was the norm. I had to use two necks to work out these ideas on my Fender 1000. I'm betting that today's mechanical marvels can do it all on a single 8-string neck.

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 1 Jul 2009 5:29 am

b0b, I think there is no question it can be done.

It's just a matter if some manufacturer will take the lead and go back to the drawing board and re-design their changers.

I have been hoping for years someone would do this

I think the changers being made today are unneccessarily way too complicated. $:\$

I bought a nice used MSA once and wanted to learn to play the E9th tuning. I was used to an old 6 string 6 pedal Multi-Kord and wanted to keep that tuning on one neck while learning the E9th neck. I spent two days changing the C6th neck to the same copedant I had on my Multi-Kord. I had to reverse the sequence of the pedals to do this because of so much stuff being in the way. (it did work) I just changed it back to the original and sold it.

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 1 Jul 2009 5:50 am

b0b, how much does your concept rely on bar slants?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Jul 2009 7:31 am

Danny, there is nothing in this copedent that can't be done on a modern triple raise, double lower changer.

Rich, I use bar slants in my playing. The only place where I foresee needing the bar slant is to simulate the 3rd and 5th strings of E9th from the D major (open) position (1st and 4th strings). There is no pedal raising the A note to B. I do this reverse slant routinely on non-pedal tunings, so I don't think of it as a problem.

It would not be hard to add a "pedal zero" raising A to B. That would eliminate the need for the slant, and it would work ergonomically with LKL.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 1 Jul 2009 9:35 am

gee thanx b0b...i've always been a steadfast d10 lover...i can't believe that now i'm considering a s8!

oh yeah...if you put this on a ten string, what other two strings would you go with?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Jul 2009 9:55 am

Chris, I'd add an E as the first string and a low D as the tenth. Also, I'd change P3 and P5 to match the standard C6th changes on the bottom strings.

Jay Yuskaitis · Post by **Jay Yuskaitis** » 1 Jul 2009 10:35 am

I went back to 8 string steels about 18 years ago for the same reason. I did experiment with a tuning Noel Boggs used on my Fender 1000 for a while but finally settled on a form of B6th that I could use with pedals and if I got lost, go over playing straight steel. I also had Jerry Fessenden build me a single 8 with my specified string spacing. It turned out great!
Jay Y.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Jul 2009 12:22 pm

I love such KISS concepts - when they work!

Makes me wonder why I want a 12 strings Uni with all the extra pedals and unnecessary complications. Probably a flaw in my DNA

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 1 Jul 2009 12:41 pm

I agree b0b, no reason it shouldn't work great.
I'm using this tuning on my S-10s.

G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#
E

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Jul 2009 1:00 pm

I see where you're coming from, Scott. Getting that low E has always been a serious requirement for me. I feel handicapped without it.

This 8 string copedent goes almost as high as the E9th (G# vs A), but also includes the low guitar and dobro notes. It's not as versatile in the high end as a real E9th, though. Around here, that doesn't seem to matter too much. Most of the country bands don't expect you to play like a Nashville record.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 1 Jul 2009 1:30 pm

In my case, it helps that I CAN'T play like the Nashville records. If it's after about '65, I'm lost as a goose.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 2 Jul 2009 6:56 am

b0b, what are your reasons for dropping two strings - is it mainly a matter of size and weight reduction? If not, why not just remove the outer strings on an S10. That would certainly help keeping the resale value up.

I have been toying with the idea of a minimalist 8-stringer as well, just to make it light and compact: E9 minus strings 1 & 2; A+B pedals, 3 horizontal knee levers and E-F# on a vertical; keyless... But considering how often my Zum gets outside the house, I really don't need one...

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jul 2009 7:17 am

I like the wider string spacing of a real 8-string. I make fewer mistakes with wide string spacing.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 2 Jul 2009 8:17 am

But, if string spacing is a major motivation, and if you're having an instrument specially made, why not have ten strings with the wider spacing?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jul 2009 8:59 am

But, if string spacing is a major motivation, and if you're having an instrument specially made, why not have ten strings with the wider spacing?

Because I like playing on 8 strings.

I have two 8 string pedal steels, but they are antiques (Fender and Rickenbacker). They can't handle this copedent without major modifications, and they have the 50's vintage tone which isn't what I normally like to play. I like playing them on top, but the pedals feel really rough and there are no knee levers.

Why should I get 10 strings when I only want 8? By your logic, all bassists should switch to 5- or 6-string basses, even if they are most comfortable on a 4 string. And all banjo players should ... well, never mind.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 2 Jul 2009 9:36 am

b0b, I didn't at all mean to say that you SHOULD want ten strings, I was just curious why you didn't, because I know you have played ten-string tunings.

Jay Yuskaitis · Post by **Jay Yuskaitis** » 2 Jul 2009 12:46 pm

I've never been able to sound like a Mashville record and have never tried. Maybe that's why I'm one of the MANY losers here. I'm a decent speller, try not to make mistakes, and proof read every thing I send many times! Take care all. Jay Y.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 3 Jul 2009 6:57 am

Actually, it's because I like the wider string spacing<<

b0b. Most string spacing is 11/32 on ten string steels..what will be the string spacing on your eight string steel?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 3 Jul 2009 7:14 am

About 7/16", I expect. It's 8 strings in the space of ten, using a regular 10 string pickup.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 3 Jul 2009 4:38 pm

You should get a ten string pedal steel, IMHO.

Seriously, though. I'm getting an S6 because I want that wide string spacing. Just how important are those two extra strings that I'll be missing?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 Jul 2009 9:04 am

I can't comment on 6 strings vs 8, James. I got my first 8-string in 1973. For a long time, I couldn't even play 6-string lap steels as they felt to confining to me.

Yesterday I rebuilt the back neck of my D-12 Williams (temporarily) with this 8 string copedent. WOW! It's amazing how it has country, rock, blues, western swing and Hawaiian all in one little tuning.

The rock power chords of p2+p3 on the low 3 strings really kick ass. I didn't have an .050 handy so I used .054 for the low string. Good idea! I think I'll change the 7th string .038 to .042 too. Big bottom.

As expected, the hardest thing for me is getting used to BA "Day" pedal order on the country licks, but I'm getting there. Also, I'm having a slight mechanical problem when I release the G# lever LKR with the G lever RKR engaged. It's not returning correctly. Need to figure that one out.

This is FUN!

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 6 Jul 2009 2:39 pm

I hear ya bOb. Wider string spacing is a big reason I went back to D10 from U12. I wish I had the time, money, and patience to do what you're doing.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 8 Jul 2009 5:42 am

Hey Scott S. Another idea is to keep the E9th chromatic tuning on the outer neck and put your E9th non-chromatic on the inner neck of a D-10..that way you get your two lower strings back for the power chords and rock stuff and still have the chromatic E9th neck for the ballads.

The Steel Guitar Forum

My Crazy Pipe Dream Revisited

My Crazy Pipe Dream Revisited

8 string

My happy day!

wider string spacing

Best of both worlds?