pedal usage question from a beginner

Chris Morrison · Post by **Chris Morrison** » 20 Jun 2009 12:28 pm

Hi, When playing single notes with either A or B pedals, is it worth pressing just the needed pedal, or is it OK to press both? Example, playing an ascending C major scale on 8th fret, starting on 8th string: the E, F, G, A sequence could be played using B pedal only for F, A pedal only for A. Or, if I mute well, using both pedals for each of them. It seems easier to use both...

thanks! Chris

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 20 Jun 2009 1:04 pm

Playing steel should be easy, so if it sounds right and feels right to push both pedals simultaneously, do so.

Often one will push combined pedals slightly "in advance", so that a chord sounds right even if one hits the wrong string(s). So one way to figure out what is better, is to check what the entire chord will sound like even if you intend to play it note by note.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Jun 2009 1:44 pm

Quite simply, "no", it's a bad habit. Learn to press just the pedals you need. Why press pedals when you're not playing the strings they activate? (The "easy" way is not always the best way.)

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 20 Jun 2009 2:38 pm

You should teach your foot muscles to make the following moves:

0 to A+B
0 to A
0 to B
A to A+B
B to A+B
A+B to A
A+B to B

Until you muscles can do all of the motions automatically, your mind won't be free to play the music.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Jun 2009 11:50 am

oops - see next

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Jun 2009 11:52 am

b0b, you forgot:

A to B
B to A

And then, of course, there is a C pedal.

I think somewhere in between the extremes of what Georg and Donny say would be okay.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 21 Jun 2009 6:01 pm

David Doggett wrote:b0b, you forgot:

A to B
B to A

Technically you're right, but in practice I've never found those moves to be very useful musically. YMMV, of course.

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 21 Jun 2009 6:02 pm

this is a huge problem for me as well. i find my whole leg moves instead of just my ankle. its frustrating because sometimes when i am pressing pedal B in preparation for rolling into A my knee engages my E-lever. I find it extremely frustrating

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 21 Jun 2009 6:18 pm

This may be a bit off topic, but when you tune a pull for the A pedal or the B pedal, do you tune the pull with both pedals down, or just the pedal for the pull that you're tuning? If you're tuning out cabinet drop with both pedals down, then would that relate to pressing both pedals or just one? I don't mean this as a way to skirt the ability to rock and roll your ankle, but more as a tuning concern. It doesn't seem to make a difference on my guitar, but perhaps on some guitars?

Chris Morrison · Post by **Chris Morrison** » 21 Jun 2009 6:27 pm

Karen, I've noticed that where I place my left heel makes a big difference in what happens with my knee & leg. Depending on where I put the heel, my leg can be either completely relaxed without touching either lever, or really tensed up to avoid one lever or the other. I should note that my levers are currently set up almost 2" wider than my knee, so, with heel placed for relaxed leg when ready to press A & B, there's some room for my leg to move when rolling onto one or the other. BTW, I'm one of those who has trouble pressing B but not A; the other way around is much easier for my leg... Mind you, I'm a beginner, so any/all of this may change...! HTH!

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 22 Jun 2009 11:00 am

For me, the general idea is not to sway the whole leg, but to tilt your ankle (foot) in the direction of the pedal you need to engage. The rest of the leg remains stationary....only to tilt towards the appropriate knee lever you need to use. Years ago I had my knee levers also set-up to allow for space around my knee..... that has all changed....I now have my levers quite flush against my knees.....I guess it boils down to eventually getting the foot movements just right.
I also find that thin soled sneakers do the trick....I 'feel' the pedals better that way. Occasionally I may wear ordinary sneakers, but find that when I'm on, say, the 'B' pedal the thicker sole makes part contact with the 'A' pedal, pushing that note slightly out of tune. Those thicker soles also feels awkward when shifting from AB to BC...feels like I have to lift my foot much higher to make the shift.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 22 Jun 2009 12:37 pm

Wearing whatever you call "normal shoes" while playing usually makes it easier to control those pedals over time, as you'll then learn to feel the pedals through the sole - even thick ones if they're not too hard. In time it won't matter much what you're wearing, but may take a few years to get there.

The height of the pedals also matters, as it should be easy to rest your foot just clear of the pedals and to push one or two down and/or rock between them with very small movements. In the beginning none of this is easy, so practice a bit, adjust height of one or more pedals if necessary, and try to find the positions and movements that suit you best. Some keep all pedals at the same height, while others - like me - adjust the B pedal slightly lower than the A and C pedal for less stressful rocking between the pedals.

Getting levers and pedals right in relations to your leg so you don't have to put unnecessary stress on your leg in order to get to all pedal/lever combinations, is something you have to figure out, test and adjust over time until it works right and feels right for you.

I have my left knee-levers so close together that there's less than half an inch free play sideways in total and literally no free play to the vertical knee-lever when I'm wearing normal shoes. Thus, I don't have to move my foot relative to those pedals to push either knee-lever, or move my upper leg to position my foot relative to pedal A & B or B & C.

When in a hurry and knowing I'm gonna need all 3 pedals, I position my foot over pedal B so I can twist my foot on the heal and rock/jump from pedal A to C or C to A, while keeping pedal B under my foot the whole time so I can push it down when needed. Otherwise, when more relaxed, I position my foot midway over pedal A & B, or over B & C, for less stress/strain.

Brick Spieth · Post by **Brick Spieth** » 22 Jun 2009 4:46 pm

I find that the more to the right I sit, the greater the angle of my foot across the A and B pedals, enabling a much easier rocking between the pedals and a much less floppy knee. Once your knee isn't moving much, you can adjust your levers much tighter to your knee which helps faster lever action.

Now if I could just move to the BC pedals smoothly I'd be getting somewhere.

Is it OK for your heel to come off the floor slightly when rocking the B with the C pedal down and LKR thrown?

Chris Morrison · Post by **Chris Morrison** » 22 Jun 2009 4:51 pm

Thanks for all this great advice -- it's a big help!

Chris

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 22 Jun 2009 8:44 pm

I tune A & B with both pedals pressed. The same with other combinations like the E to Eb lower and the 6th string G# to F#, A & F, B & C, etc.

2" play in the knee levers?

I can't imagine having to move my knee that far just to start the move. That would make it difficult to activate those levers quickly. Like Nic, I have my levers to where they just barely touch my left knee. I can hit 4 pedals without my knee swinging or moving and activating either lever. You need to spend time working on keeping your left knee from moving.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 23 Jun 2009 6:07 am

ive only been playing three years. I say this so you know who is talking to you and to take my advice/comments for what it is...that of a relative newb. The guys posting above know far more than I ever will.

I took a seminar with Jaydee Maness, my favorite player, and he talked about "loading your pedals".
I think what he meant by this was you might start a lick with your B pedal already depressed even tho you wont be hitting that string for a bit.

as the others have said...You'll definetly wanna be able to hit one or the other alone tho and that takes repition to get your muscles to remember a move they arent used to making.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 23 Jun 2009 8:27 am

Ben,....I'm with you on your suggestion of 'Loading' the pedals......Pretty soon you will know instinctively when to do it....

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 23 Jun 2009 9:24 am

Ben, Nic: I said that in my first response on this thread, but it may not have come through properly since I didn't refer to JayDee

I always push pedals in advance - or "load them", if I'm gonna need them like that soon anyway and they don't produce the wrong notes/chords before that. Depends entirely on where I am and where I'm going - what notes/strings/chords I'm going to play next and after that.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 23 Jun 2009 9:47 am

Sorry Georg I missed that part of your post.

heres a question for you guys...you know all those bouncing Mooney type licks? It seems like he may be stomping A+B together when all he needs is A...but maybe I have that wrong? sometimes I do think it is quicker and more effecient to just stomp em both even if both arent needed...or maybe that is just my newbish mistake/bad habit.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 23 Jun 2009 9:48 am

Georg,
I'm in total agreement with you. I realize I do have the habit of trying to say what I have to say, in the shortest possible concise manner. Your original answer is spot on!

Regards,

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 23 Jun 2009 9:53 am

Ben,

Stomping implies a motion that comes from the hip, not from the ankle. Is that what you're doing? I don't think that I ever actually stomp on the pedals.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 23 Jun 2009 9:57 am

Ben, interesting poser!
Whenever I do any of those 'Mooney' type licks I move my foot further to the left, and position my foot in a way that my big toe is sort of over Pedal 'A'.... after playing the lick I'll drag my foot back to the normal playing position. Being out here in Africa, we are not close to repair shops for steel guitar, so it may be a psychological effort in trying not to put unnecessary wear and tear on the pedal system...

(Sound kind of silly, doesn't it!)

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 23 Jun 2009 10:05 am

Ben: again; if pushing A & B together does not result in the wrong chord, then why not. All you risk is to break sting 3 a little earlier because it gets stretched and bended more often than what's "absolutely necessary".

I remember someone asking Jeff Newman, on a seminar in Norway in the early 1980's, why he pushed down both A & B when he only needed one of them. His answer was something like: "it's easier that way - especially when wearing big boots".

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 23 Jun 2009 1:25 pm

I personally DON'T think its a good idea to use A & B pedals together if you only need A or B, as a rule. Its best to learn good habits right from the start. If you plan to continue to get better and more advanced, you will find that playing quicker single note lines and even faster chords changes will at times require you to be on and off certain pedals quickly. Moving harmony lines very often require rolling on or off one pedal while still engaging another..Down the road, you will be glad you got the foot work down now IMHO
Hook

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 23 Jun 2009 1:53 pm

Hook raises some very good points in his way of thinking. Getting too reliant on one specific type of foot movement may become your, dare I say 'Achilles Heel' in slowing down your progress on the steel.
All round feet dexterity will play an essential role in one's overall development towards playing 'better'.