Simmons pull release changer

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 17 Jun 2009 9:56 am

as many of you know i recently bought a new guitar from Bob Simmons , and a few had expressed concerns regarding the pull release changer
well i spoke with Bob this morning and we talked about the changer and why he uses it
as it turns out this is a MUCH inproved version of the old pull/release system
the reason he uses it is because it is so reliable and stays in tune so well
the thing some may not like about this changer is that its harder to change or add to
but with that said most of us never tinker with that kinda thing ( but a few do ) for most of us the 3 & 4 set up is all we will ever need
so what i am saying is this : don't sell this guitar short because of the pull/release
this is my 5th guitar and in my book Bob makes a hell of a nice guitar , it does stay in tune ,
the action of the pedals and knees are smooth as any ( better than most ) that i have played and the cost is a lot less
so i would recommend Simmons guitars to anyone , beginer or pro

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 17 Jun 2009 11:25 am

How about posting some Simmons undercarriage pix?

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 17 Jun 2009 12:56 pm

asked and done

Bob Simmons · Post by **Bob Simmons** » 17 Jun 2009 4:50 pm

www.genesissteelguitars.com by simmons or 205-647-6400 $995 3 pedals. 4 knee levers , case

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 17 Jun 2009 10:21 pm

I don't see any springs. Does it do lowers?

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 17 Jun 2009 11:29 pm

b0b wrote:I don't see any springs.
Does it do lowers?

BoB,
It does lowers.

In this pic that shows the RKR,
you'll see two springs (arrows)
that coil around the cross-shaft.
These springs overcome string
tension (in this case it is
strings 2 and 9), holding the
strings up, to their 'idle' pitch.
When the knee is engaged, leg pressure
overcomes spring tension, allowing the
strings to lower.
This system is the same as
ole Miller Steels, as well
as some others, used.
Any string that is both
raised and lowered must
have free play in the
raise in order to allow
for the lower.
~Russ

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 18 Jun 2009 7:40 am

Thanks for the explanation, Russ. Does this mean that a lever or pedal can't raise one string and lower another, like the standard C6th pedals do?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Jun 2009 7:53 am

Maybe it's just me, but I can't see you buying a guitar like this when you already had a Mullen? (Looking at the mechanics, it seems like a step down.)

Bob Simmons · Post by **Bob Simmons** » 18 Jun 2009 6:22 pm

yes, we can do those raise with lowers - I just spring load another shaft keeping it indepndent when needed - I play a D10 with this on the C6, no problem. these are newly designed torsion strings and regardless what you think this is better than any student model

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 18 Jun 2009 10:40 pm

this is a MUCH inproved version
of the old pull/release system

What are the improvements?
I don't see anything
apparent in the
pictures.

~Russ

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 19 Jun 2009 10:00 am

I see one of the improvements. There are nylon tuners behind the fingers and those are used at the endplate. The old systems didn't have that. The changer still has the tuners in it like the old system, but the addition of the new tuners is the big deal. I like the old P/R just fine and this should work even better.

Here's an older system: No opening in the endplate.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 19 Jun 2009 2:14 pm

i spoke with Bob again today and let me be as clear as i can be , Bob Simmons is as nice a man as you would ever want to talk to
and is happy to answer any questions about his guitars but it bothers him to see people try to pick a part things they haven't tried
just as it would any of us . he even hinted about me closing this thread and i would except i feel it might educate some of the newer players
about his fine guitars

all you have to do is look at my signature and see the guitars that i have owned and played to see that i would not recommend his guitars if they were not great guitars at a great price
i will offer to let ANYONE come play mine and see for themselves just how well it sounds and play's
i could care less about whats under the hood as long as it works

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 19 Jun 2009 3:00 pm

I admire Simmons. Sure it is a pull release. What's wrong with that? I don't hear everybody running down the Stage one, or the GFI student models because of this. If a pull release is set up right, it will play great. Just because the old Maverick that everyone remembers, left them disappointed, doesn't mean that the pull release changer system is to blame. The pull release did wonders for all of our heroes in the old Sho-Bud perms. A perm had stuff on it that they left off of the Maverick. The Simmons is obviously quite a bit of a step up from a maverick, and at the price, it will do all the standard stuff, and I bet it sounds wonderful.

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 19 Jun 2009 3:01 pm

I see one of the improvements. There are nylon tuners behind the fingers and those are used at the endplate. The old systems didn't have that. The changer still has the tuners in it like the old system, but the addition of the new tuners is the big deal.

Steve,
Marlen used Nylon Tuners on their 'Pull/Release' guitars long ago, in like,
the '80's if not the late '70's after Nylon Tuners showed up on All-Pulls
(MSA being the first to use nylon).
~Russ

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 19 Jun 2009 3:15 pm

guy's

trust me on this one thing : Bob Simmons does not build student model guitars

it can be called an economy model but not a student

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 19 Jun 2009 3:20 pm

Steve,
Marlen used Nylon Tuners on their 'Pull/Release' guitars long ago, in like,
the '80's if not the late '70's after Nylon Tuners showed up on All-Pulls
(MSA being the first to use nylon).
~Russ

I forgot about those. I have seen them. I guess I was assuming that the "Much" part was referring to and comparing to the older P/R systems. The statement might be related to build or construction quality too? I have three P/R guitars...I'm not putting them down.

Randal Smith · Post by **Randal Smith** » 19 Jun 2009 3:59 pm

I bought a guitar from Bob through this forum. It has the Genesis undercarriage, although the body was made by someone else (not sure who). It's all metal.

As to the pull-release system, I have to agree with Calvin. This guitar plays as well as any I've ever played, and I've played most of 'em. I bought my first steel from the late Duane Marrs (God rest his soul) back in '72. It was an Emmons student model. Since then, I've owned Sho-Buds, MSA's, a Fender 400, and several other models I don't remember. All of them were all-pull models (except for the Emmons). I must admit, I also had some reservations about the pull-release system Bob was using, but I had to have something for an upcoming gig and the price was right, so I bought it. After playing it, I have no hesitation in recommending it. You might call it an economy model, but I'd call it a really good steel guitar.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 19 Jun 2009 4:31 pm

as Randal can and will tell you
i had my concerns and when i found out Randal owned a Simmons, i contacted him about the Simmons Guitars
Randal told me stright up "buy it you won't regret it "
i did and i haven't

listen folks i'm NOT telling how good it is just because i own a Simmons
the reason i seem to be raving about this guitar is because ( I ) was so suprised at the Quility ,Sound , and ease of playing and a great price
feel free to call Bob , i played this guitar about 2 hours and REALLY did call him and tell him he was selling these guitars to cheap

just try to name even one other builder that has had that happen ...

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 19 Jun 2009 7:01 pm

Donny Hinson wrote>Maybe it's just me, but I can't see you buying a guitar like this when you already had a Mullen? (Looking at the mechanics, it seems like a step down.)<<

No Donny, it is not just you, put me on your list

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 19 Jun 2009 8:43 pm

Brad

your putting something down that you have never sat down and played ...

take me up on my challenge, come to my house and play it, then say whatever you please

My ph # 719-214-7299 call and i'll give you directions how to get here

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 20 Jun 2009 4:14 am

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a pull-release system, and how does it work? What are its advantages and disadvantages? Does it allow multiple changes and tunable splits?

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 20 Jun 2009 4:55 am

Multiple changes are limited but possible

The pull-release system does not lend itself to tunable splits.

If a player has a complex copedent, a pull-release would be too limited.

I have two pull-release steels, as I have a simple copedent, and I prefer the tone of a pull-release over an all-pull system

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 20 Jun 2009 7:28 am

Hey Cal, I'm not putting anything down but life is a matter of choices and I opt to make other choices....good luck and thanks for the invitation.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 20 Jun 2009 9:22 am

i think Richard has it figured out

here is the thing : unless your one of the FEW
that need a complex copendent, why pay for things you never going to use ?

retail for the Mullen $3400.00
retail for the Simmons $995.00
and i'm telling you its not a student model
and it play's as smooth as the Mullen

i was as suprised as anyone at this guitar
i did NOT think it would be this good at this price

another thing i love about it is that there is zero play in the knee's , they are adjustable
but once your knee touch's the lever the string is changing pitch instantly, same thing with the pedals

every other steel i played had at least some lag
(slack ) might be a better word between the time you touch a pedal/knee and the string starting to change pitch
not so on the Simmons, so it allow's for faster playing ( if i could play faster haha)

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 20 Jun 2009 9:33 am

Pull-release is a simple system, with one-piece changer fingers that typically stop against the body of the guitar. That acoustic coupling can improve sustain, and the simplicity of the design can give you a firmer, more direct pedal action.

The trade-off is that the copedent must be simpler. On the pull-release Marlen that I used to own, you couldn't raise and lower a string, or raise a string to two different pitches. Not easily, anyway.

Here's the copedent that I had on my Marlen. As you can see, it was limited but it had everything I needed for classic country music: <center>

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Simmons pull release changer

Simmons pull release changer

genesis

changer

a step down?...maybe a flight of steps?

choices