Help purchasing a Steel: Shobud Dbl Neck

William King · Post by **William King** » 21 May 2009 7:38 am

Hi Guys -
A coworker is selling a Shobud doubleneck steel. It looks to be in great shape. 10 Strings on each neck, with 6 pedals and 1 knee lever. I cannot find a model number on it anywhere. I know it is NOT a fingertip model. I thought it was at first.

Here is a link to a .rar file with some pics:
http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/87663 ... 0Steel.rar

He is asking $1500 for it. This includes a Peavey Black Widow amp. I already have an old Bassman 60watt head, a Fender Vibroverb & an old Yamaha amp, so I'm not so keen on buying the amp. He tells
me that I really need the amp.

What do you guys think? Anyone have an idea as to what model/year it might be? Should I move on it? What do you think is a fair price for something like this? It looked to be in fine shape and well cared for. No rusting, not too many dings, and the electronics seemed to be clean.

Thanks for your help; I've played guitar for years, and for quite sometime now I've wanted to pick up a pedal steel and see what happens. I've always loved the sound.

Best,
Will

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 May 2009 7:51 am

It's a 6+1? I can't see the pics, but it sounds like it could be a crossover model (lever on the backside switches the pedals from one neck to the other). I don't know what the amp is worth ("Black Widow" is just the speaker type), but the guitar probably isn't worth over a grand. Yes, it can be made into a nice guitar, but it will cost you more than a few hundred to do it. IMHO, there's a lot better deals out there. If you're just starting out, you want somehing that's ready to go - not a "project guitar"

William King · Post by **William King** » 21 May 2009 8:03 am

Thanks for your help.

For the Pics, try this:

http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/87663 ... /i-1_B.jpe

http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/87663 ... /i-2_B.jpe

http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/87663 ... -3_B_T.jpe

http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/87663 ... /i-4_B.jpe

http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/87663 ... /i-5_B.jpe

Ah, you are right about the amp. I don't know the model...has one 12" Black Widow I think.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 21 May 2009 8:17 am

i bet that guitar will sound GREAT - but you have to realize there are issues with a 40 year old steel - i would say from the pics, that is a late 60's crossover, which have their own set of problems, however, $1500 if its clean is a fair deal.

you need to decide what kind of music you will play on it and how much mechanical tweaking you are willing to put up with. i dont know this would be a good fit for a first/only steel unless, as someone said, you get it set-up and tweaked first.

i have a '69 Sho-Bud and it is a beautiful sounding steel - BUT - its HEAVY, i mean HEAVY and the parts are expensive if you need them AND THEY WILL BREAK or be worn, they are tempermental and in general, not something i would leave the house with - its fine for setting up in a music room but lugging a heavy 80 lb steel to practice every week will get old fast.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 May 2009 11:12 am

Wood wraparound changer. Probably a '68. Eggs Ackley the same as my first steel.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 21 May 2009 11:35 am

lugging a heavy steel around was just part of the job for most of us, jerome...we all survived...they're not that tempermental unless you're just over fussy and weak.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 21 May 2009 1:22 pm

Those blonde Crossovers remind me of other types of blondes: beautiful to look at, but trouble and headaches at the end.

If it has a lever attached to the back apron, it's a Crossover. The lever was designed to move all the pedal pulls from one neck to the other. That mechanism, as others have said, is a challenge to get operating smoothly. It was not one of Sho~Bud's best moments, and consequentially the Crossover is one the least desirable of all Sho~Bud models. If you're a beginner, I'd say move on from this steel.

The body is stunning.....but, as I said, that blonde will dazzle your eyes and mess with your head.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 May 2009 1:33 pm

From the Lloyd Green interview:
'On May 9, 1973, Sho-Bud delivered the first production LDG to Green at his home in Madison. "I played it the rest of my career, until 1988, when I quit doing sessions." Surprisingly, his all-around favorite remains the Crossover originally modified by Jackson. "It was just magnificent-sounding from 1970 to May of '73, when [the LDG] was built. I can tell the difference when I hear that sound. It's just so rich and elegant. Even my LDG doesn't measure up." '

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 21 May 2009 1:38 pm

$1500 with amp for a Sho-Bud Crossover is a BAD deal period. The Crossover is a very poorly designed guitar. They were THE most misdesigned and trouble prone guitar that Sho-Bud ever built. I don't know where these people get their expertise from to tell you such a thing. All Sho-Buds need to be gone over by an experienced Sho-Bud mechanic before being purchased unless they have been gone though already at a dealer shop. A Crossover is worth about $300.00, and only to someone who is either going to convert it or use it as a single neck. Chris Ledrew is correct. Move on. If this is your first guitar call a dealer such as Bobbe Seymour's Steel Guitar Nashville for expert advise and support on purchasing one of their in house stock used guitars. They will take care of you.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 21 May 2009 1:44 pm

Kevin speaks the truth in a big way.

John Billings wrote:From the Lloyd Green interview:
'On May 9, 1973, Sho-Bud delivered the first production LDG to Green at his home in Madison. "I played it the rest of my career, until 1988, when I quit doing sessions." Surprisingly, his all-around favorite remains the Crossover originally modified by Jackson. "It was just magnificent-sounding from 1970 to May of '73, when [the LDG] was built. I can tell the difference when I hear that sound. It's just so rich and elegant. Even my LDG doesn't measure up." '

Yes, sound-wise they're incredible. And Lloyd was just using one neck, which made the tuning problems relatively a moot point. That's not fair ball, John!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 21 May 2009 1:46 pm

Good thing he wasn't playing a Sho-Bud Crossover.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 May 2009 1:56 pm

Chris. You're right! They sound fabulous. My '67 S-10 is an amazing-sounding guitar. So was my first steel, the Crossover that I got in '70. My old Xover would play perfectly in E9th, switch the lever over to C6th, and it would play perfectly. But,,,, switch back to E9th, and it was all messed up! If I found one today, for a good price (and, to me, at least, $1,500 is not a good price) I'd Lloyderize it! Coop says he has a way to make them work perfectly.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 21 May 2009 1:58 pm

...sure looks like a Baldwin x-over to me. Yes, they have a nice tone, beautiful cabinetry and weigh a ton.

You can play some basic pedal changes with this, but you need at least 3 more knee levers to duplicate licks and combinations you hear on modern records.

Some previous owners cite instances of the crossover mechanism falling apart under certain conditions while playing, but I never experienced that with the one that I had.

Just a few short 6 or 7 years ago I bought and sold a gorgeous near mint example of one of these for well under a grand. Considering pricing lately for these older so-called "vintage" instruments, I'd be afraid to venture a guess as to their current value.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 21 May 2009 3:45 pm

Kevin is pulling your leg with that 300 dollar crack...

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 21 May 2009 3:58 pm

Tom, I'm serious. With one knee they are worth about $300.00. They aren't worth anything to me because I wouldn't own one. Boat anchors.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 21 May 2009 5:37 pm

I will chime in since a Crossover was my first Sho-Bud.

Basically, I agree with Kevin and Chris, though perhaps with not the... um, ... lack of enthusiasm

as Kevin.

It's not for a beginner, so avoid this instrument.

But if I found one for 3 or 400 bucks...

The Crossover was a great sounding guitar, and if purchased for a reasonable enough price could be modified into an excellent SD-10. This would involve removal of all C6 parts (including neck, pickup, peghead, et al.), and then refurbing the guitar into a 3 & 4 "Lloyd Green" type guitar with a pad.

The spare parts could be resold to considerably reduce the initial price. Pegheads, pickups, old Grover tuners, necks, etc. are still very useful and are valuable... just not on the guitar as it stands.

But again, this is something that would require a ton of custom work by an experienced steel mechanic. The result would be a wonderful, though still heavy, guitar.

My take on the Crossover is great sound and looks, but disappointing everything else.

Bobby Burns · Post by **Bobby Burns** » 21 May 2009 6:05 pm

That is a beautiful guitar. I bet it sounds wonderful. My second steel was a crossover. My first was a single neck push pull. I wanted a double, and against the advice of Herby Wallace, I bought the crossover. They were considered duds even 20 years ago. It had a tone that put my Emmons to shame, but I never tuned the Emmons unless a string was about to break. I never stopped tuning the crossover. I set mine up with 4 pedals and 3 levers on the e9, no pedals on the c6. Still, it creaked and rattled, went out of tune often, weighed a ton, had a funky rounded chipboard case, but looked cool. If I found one as clean as that one in the pictures for waaaayy less that $1500, but more than $300, I'd buy it just to see if I know better how to deal with it now that I did then. If I was looking for my first steel and one that I could enjoy playing, instead of a mechanical project, I'd call Bobbe Seymore, or someone else with the knowledge and inventory to help me choose something that works better.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 21 May 2009 6:10 pm

Agreed brother Herb.

John Coop · Post by **John Coop** » 21 May 2009 7:10 pm

double raise / double lower with advanced geometry Coop

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 21 May 2009 7:57 pm

As you can see; this is NOT a baldwin crossover. Nothing like it.
The finger mounting of this is just like a professional with Tail piece....It has been mistaken to be a crossover simply because it has "distributed by baldwin" on it....but it has a sound that a crossover could not even get close to.
Now if you look above; at what John coop just re-engineered for the mounting of a crossover or wood wraparound shobud....; he now has fixed the inferior mounting; with something that will ring so much better; and double/double changer; with modern pulling system; Now that is genius.
Ricky

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 21 May 2009 8:07 pm

A crossover for $300??? I'll take 3 please.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 21 May 2009 8:24 pm

Scott
I could fix you up, but I don't take returns. And since I cherish your friendship, I'd like it to continue.

Look up "buyer's remorse" in Google. You might be surprised at some of the photos there.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 21 May 2009 9:00 pm

Yeah, but what do I know, I play a Maverick for cryin out loud!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 May 2009 10:22 pm

I'm with Herb on this. The best thing to do with a crossover may be to take off the C6 stuff and make it an SD10. That eliminates the mechanical problems, and the tone will be great. But it will still be mighty heavy, because of the cast iron frame.

Despite that photo, I would think Lloyd knew the difference between a Baldwin/Sho-Bud crossover and a Baldwin/Sho-bud D10.

The crossover in the pictures seems to have been refinished - the color is too light to be the original natural lacquer. It also may have the metal parts polished. That leads me to wonder if there haven't been mechanical upgrades. We need to see the undercarriage. It may no longer be a crossover.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 22 May 2009 4:43 am

William, there are better deals available right here on the forum.
Hook

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