impossible?

Mike Bowles · Post by **Mike Bowles** » 14 Apr 2009 12:09 pm

is it impossible for a lead guitarist to back off his volume and let the steel player take his break i played saturday in wytheville with several guitars and a key board player i played lead too but when it came time for the break i would turn and look at the steel player but before he could take the break someone else would jump in needless to say i got a little hot me being a steel player wanna be i wanted to hear the steel we are working on this problem we dont get paid to play there but i think this shouldnt matter no 2 lead instruments should be playing at the same time

Matthew Prouty · Post by **Matthew Prouty** » 14 Apr 2009 12:50 pm

Blow Darts 1st time.

Blow Darts with poison 2nd time.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 14 Apr 2009 7:46 pm

Back when I was a youth........

The band leaders would NEVER tolerate this kinda low-class, no-class g'tar pickin'. No tuning of instruments during another's turn to play either.

In this day of liberalism where anything goes, where the good guys are blamed for making the other guy turn bad.........you can't expect much of anything else. NO sense of personal responsibility or fair play on the band stand.

BANISHMENT from the band was the solution and sooner or later the word got around and the offender was simply out of work for an extended period of time.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 15 Apr 2009 3:10 am

One good solution is to have steel and fiddle as lead instruments and guitar as a rhythm instrument only.

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 15 Apr 2009 3:17 am

Been there Mike and its really annoying. I finally gave up and quit. I noticed when I would lay back to let the guitar player have his part... he would lay back also. When I would come in, he would come in, as you said, loud as could be and walking all over me. I use to tell him "don't need your (few choice words) help when I take a break.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 15 Apr 2009 9:53 am

Mike,I play both steel,and guitar...I've run into that at a VFW jam lately and refuse to put up with it,It's a respect thing when I'm playing guitar and the steel player is soloing I'm comping rhythm behind him and also lowering my volume.I know a guy up here who wants to jump on my solos with me and I asked him what the hell is was doing?He told me that he was playing a twin to me? I told him to shut the ---- up!Some of these guys need to learn how to comp and stay out of the way of the steel guitar,some of those steel players can get mean.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 Apr 2009 10:11 am

I also play guitar and steel, and it is possible to lay back on someone else's solo. It's about the player, not the instrument. Guitar, keyboard, horn, fiddle, and any other kind of player - including steel players - can and sometimes do stomp over everything like a wild animal marking its territory. However, I will agree that many (but emphatically not all) guitar players are not well trained in basic musicianship, and that can be a real problem.

A complication with guitar is that it's both a strong rhythm and lead instrument, as is keyboard. Guitar and keyboard are often expected to support the soloist in some way - for example chordally and/or rhythmically. The issue is whether or not what one does in support of a soloist is appropriate. One should never compete the vocal or soloist, but the other variable is that what is appropriate is sometimes subject to personal taste.

This has been hashed over and over many times on this forum. I don't think there is any simple rule that covers all situations. I know many of you disagree, but then again, you don't work with the people I do who would get upset if I, as a guitar player, just stopped playing when someone else took a solo. In a small (2-4 piece) combo, sometimes it's necessary to cover each others' backsides.

Music is about communication at a lot of levels.

All my opinions, YMMV, and all that.

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 15 Apr 2009 10:15 am

Rick Alexander wrote:One good solution is to have steel and fiddle as lead instruments and guitar as a rhythm instrument only.

or work with mature, considerate musicians who prioritize the total sound rather than only their moment in the sun

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 15 Apr 2009 10:57 am

It's a simple of matter of knowing when to play as much as knowing how to play. Sometimes players that know a lot of licks don't work well in the band (team) setting. That's why I like to hear a player in the band setting, rather than just play a bunch of instrumentals at a steel show. This is one of the things that separates the amatures from the pros.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 15 Apr 2009 10:59 am

One has to be flexible and try to keep ego out of the equation. Most of the gigs I play, I'm the only lead instrument player, so my habits are to try to find something interesting to add color and rhythmic groove throughout each song--a rhythmic pattern or punch, a riff, a fill, a counter-melody, whatever. When I find myself on a gig with one or more other lead instrument players, I need to consciously adjust--what's appropriate in one situation isn't in another.

I was called to fill in on guitar at the last minute on a gig with a band I'd never worked with, with an excellent steel player of some prominence as very much the featured lead instrument. Greatly admiring his steel work, I was trying, to my mind, to unobtrusively complement what he was doing by comping and occasionally throwing in a simple fill between his lines (there was already an acoustic guitarist playing strum rhythm), and actually feeling pretty good about it. After a few songs, he turned and, very graciously, told me what I was doing was distracting, and could I just play rhythm. I was embarrassed, but not put out, and played quiet strum rhythm behind his lead work the rest of the night (I got solos too).

Tastes differ. When I watch videos from steel shows, it usually bugs me that, while the steeler is playing great stuff, the code of conduct that prevails requires that the rest of the band reduce themselves to being no different from Band-In-a-Box. To me, the best music happens when everyone is actively involved in creating, even when one is the soloist. But of course that requires musicians with good judgment, which doesn't sound like it was the case on the occasion that started this thread.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 15 Apr 2009 11:25 am

It's VERY SIMPLE, It's the difference between a PRO and an AMATEUR. When I was a kid and first started playing in bands I was clueless,[was playing sixstring] I thought I had to play EVERY little hot lick I had worked on from the first note of a song to the last,did'nt take long for a couple of old PROS to set me straight,If you are working with someone that does this,first explain to them what they are doing wrong,if they are too dense to grasp it,cut them loose,or find another band to play with.Guess I'm lucky,I have played with a lot of guys in this area in different bands over the last 30 or 40 years,they all know how to play in a group,they know WHEN to play,but most important when NOT to play.takes a little time for a newbie to figure this out,that they are NOT the only player in the band. DYKBC.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 15 Apr 2009 11:23 pm

Ray Montee wrote:
In this day of liberalism where anything goes, where the good guys are blamed for making the other guy turn bad.........you can't expect much of anything else. NO sense of personal responsibility or fair play on the band stand.

I fail to see how liberalism (or conservatism too for that matter) has anything whatsoever to do with a guitar player being an inconsiderate jerk.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Apr 2009 12:05 am

I had the inverse problem last weekend,
I was drowning him out a bit first night.
But we naturally found a push pull that worked well.
And each got out of the others way.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 16 Apr 2009 3:10 am

I've been lucky as far as the guitar players I've worked with. Keyboard and fiddle players have driven me nutz all too often though! Fiddlers don't seem to know how to play rhythm. Non-stop noodlers! A bit of WD40 on their bows during a break seems to help though.

Mike Bowles · Post by **Mike Bowles** » 16 Apr 2009 8:50 am

well i hope we can work through this problem were getting to many players on stage at one time we might have to split into 2 groups but i will have to take the steel player with me what gets me is the songs and stuff we play have been around since i was a kid and thats been a few days these guys know the songs and they know when the steel should take the break and when guitar or key board should come in

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 16 Apr 2009 9:25 am

There's a band out here called "American Made" who used to have 4 lead instruments (Guitar, Fiddle/mandolin/2nd lead guitar, Steel, and Keyboards) who solved this problem.

They made written outlines of every tune, and assigned each fill and each ride (or half a ride when they shared them) to each player. Everybody had the freedom to do what they wanted when it was their turn to play, but everybody knew precisely when to play, and when not to.

They always sounded wonderful. A little planning and cooperation goes a long way.

The husband and wife nucleus of the band are still performing, but none of the other original members are still with them, and I believe that it's just the 2 of them and a rhythm section.

Matthew Prouty · Post by **Matthew Prouty** » 16 Apr 2009 9:29 am

Mike,

This is exactly what we are doing in our band. Scripting out who plays the fills where. It is a great concept because there is no guessing. Naturally if someone misses their fill section for whatever reason the next in line steps up and picks up the slack.

m.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 16 Apr 2009 9:52 am

If you're working with guys that understand the concept, it shouldn't require any rehearsals. All you need to do is pay attention and keep your head up.
For some bizarre reason the concept that everyone shouldn't be playing overtop of everyone else never occurs to some people.

Interesting thing: A local music store offers lessons for many different kinds of bluegrass instruments - fiddle, banjo, guitar, bass, etc., but they also offer a course called "Bluegrass band", and that's what it's for - for everyone to have their role within the band defined, and to bring everyone up to speed on the sharing concept. I think that's a really great idea.

-John

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Apr 2009 10:24 am

I played with a band that had a simple formula. Whoever played the 1st fill also got the 2nd and 4th. The other guy got the 3rd fill.

It made us sound a lot more arranged than we actually were.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 16 Apr 2009 10:28 am

John Steele wrote:If you're working with guys that understand the concept, it shouldn't require any rehearsals. All you need to do is pay attention and keep your head up.

That's what happened when I worked for our resident Southern California country music historian L.J. Eiffert. We never rehearsed, but we sounded like we did because everybody in the band knew what to do and what not to do. Leo (who BTW is an excellent lead guitar player himself, but played bass during my stint with him) had a guitar player who really understood how to play with a steel player, when to play and when to lay out.

It was a real pleasure to play with those guys. Leo is an excellent front man and band leader. Unfortunately he lives quite for from me, and the gigs were usually even further, and the sheer distance and deriving time to and from the gigs made it impractical for me to stay with them for very long.

Mike Bowles · Post by **Mike Bowles** » 16 Apr 2009 11:08 am

mike were working on a deal to start playing for cash there wont be that many players i will probably play so it wont be a problem i love to lay out for the steel but we will work fine together i have not played for money in a little while and this place serves alcohol i dont drink so i will check this place out first if its very roudy cancel that i used to play lead for a gospel group but refused to accept any money what i did i did for the glory of god he supplied my funds

James Marlowe · Post by **James Marlowe** » 16 Apr 2009 12:15 pm

I think every musician, or those who claim to be musicians, should watch The Time Jumpers "Jumping Time" video. These fine musicians know how to get it did!
IMO that is one of the finest examples of working together.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 Apr 2009 3:35 pm

Yeah, it's the LIBERAL'S fault. Oooooh, watch out every body. The LIBERAL musicians are coming to take over your solo.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 16 Apr 2009 4:04 pm

I think there is a lot of confusion over just what we liberals believe. We believe in personal freedom, but that does not include the freedom to abuse others.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Apr 2009 4:10 pm

Stop the political posts NOW.

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