How Many Has Had This Happen

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 3 Apr 2009 10:20 pm

Most of the time when i play out, My sound kinda seems to run away with me. I wish i knew what this was. Last week i sat down and played a set on another guys system, He was using a little pinkish colored ART processor and it sounded fabulos on every song. I'm not sure if its my mids mostly or what. For some reason when this is happening i cant make myself change the setting drastically while i'm on stage. Seems like when your home in a small room it dont seem to do this. How many of you has this happened to. Tonight when i played out i tried backing down my input and didnt seem to help. I always keep thinking the output is actually a volume knob but people has always said it is the amount of effect coming from the unit out to the speakers.I usually know how to get a knocked out amp tone but processors is a different story. It seems like i want to run my effects output knob to boost my volume when i'm thinking this may be most of my problem. Let me know what ya think.
Thanks, Gary Steele
614-316-1267

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Apr 2009 10:48 pm

There are so many parameters on an effects processor that it is far easier to get a bad sound than a good one

I am a firm believer that the fewer knobs there are , the better

Try playing without your effects unit, just use a bit of amp reverb.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 4 Apr 2009 3:11 am

Hi Gary,
I'll try and give you a condensed breakdown of how quite a few effects processors work; Say your steel volume pedal goes straight to the input of the effects unit; now dial in some effect to be added to your steel. On more advanced units the output stage of the unit has two dials, one for the actual effect level and another for the 'dry' level.......meaning the level of the original input signal (steel). So, you can adjust these two levels to suit different playing conditions. On some units the effects- together with the 'dry' levels are set during the initial process of creating the effect you are after on the unit). So, the single dial output stage of these kind of units will only increase, or decrease, the already set (and fixed) Dry and Wet mix.
I've noticed that the 'Bedroom' mix tend to be too 'over the top' at a live gig. What I did was to take note of which parameters (Delays, echo, or reverb) seem to be the culprit(s). Back at home I will then created a new effect patch (based on the 'bedroom' model), and save it to a user area on the unit. So, now I have a 'Bedroom' effect to use at home, and a edited version of the same setting for the 'stage'.
....Hope this helps a bit in trying to solve your dilemma.
Regards,
Nic

Rick Winfield · Post by **Rick Winfield** » 4 Apr 2009 3:58 am

I used to play thru an ART. In the bedroom it was excellent. When I got on stage all my tone was gone. In my situation the problem was the "input gain" was built for the bedroom, and "live", I'd have no tone, or be too loud ! A certain amount of input gain was needed to drive the correct tone. Had to reset it all, so full gain was driven thru processor, at any volume.
Rick
ps:
after spending more time setting parameters, and less time playing, I went back to "stomp boxes".

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 4 Apr 2009 4:47 am

Sometimes this kind of problem is the result of having the unit post volume pedal. Many of these guitar units are really sensitive to input level changes. You probably use more VP live than you do at home. Some efx are happier pre VP and some post. Putting the efx in a send return loop is helpful.... if your amp has that feature.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 4 Apr 2009 5:34 am

I mean this as a sincere question and not a smarta$$ed remark...Why do so many PSG players seem to need a lot of signal processing?
It was like that with electric guitar players in the 80's, it seemed. You simply weren't playing unless you had a rack full of multi-effect processors and layers of digital enhancement to get a "tone". I've always thought that a good pick up through a good amp (for me that means a tube reverb combo)is the true sound of the instrument.
I can definitely see a processor in the studio where you need to tailor the sound to a particular ambience, but on stage isn't okay to strip it down a little? Is there something about PSG that makes digital enhancement a must?
Disclaimer: I've been playing exclusively non-pedal steel and have no experience with playing or coaxing a good tone from a PSG. I do hope to join the ranks soon and so I'm genuinely curious about the essentials of PSG sound.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 4 Apr 2009 5:46 am

John,

I totally agree.... guitar, volume pedal, tube amp with reverb (most often Fender in my case).
But I do play with one band that wants heavy atmospheric processing... lots of delay and harmonizer effects.... so I take what I need for that gig.

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 4 Apr 2009 6:11 am

John and Mike, That is what i'm trying to do is keep the effect to a mininum. I dont like it to me noticable. Some people tell me they think a little bit to much of Mids cause this maybe.I'm trying a new Lemay MK-1 preamp right now. I was playing thru a Revelation, Both seem to be killer preamps. I'm also using a Lexicon MPX-1 I'v been in contact with some guys in Arizona lately that makes electronics, Pedals and preamps that is really helpful with any and all aspects of all this. So hopefully between them and everyone else i can get over this. This has happened a lot to me for years. I keep thinking its gonna go away.I hope i'm wrong but i would say this happens to a lot of people. If anyone wants to call,feel free to give me a ring.
Thanks again.
Gary.
614-316-1267

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 4 Apr 2009 6:56 am

I know a guy here in Austin who (I may have this all wrong, I'll have to talk to him) was involved in the original Lexicon designs. I've been meaning to get in touch with him about some other stuff and when I do, I'll pick his brain about this.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 4 Apr 2009 6:59 am

I like to have my Goodrich A-7 on, just so I can tweak the tone back and forth a little, quickly on the fly.
I am thinking of going to a rack sys with preamp probably a walker hoping and wondering (Please Chime in) if a rack preamp makes tone and sound more consistent??
I am sure that having the knobs right there with in reach would be nice, but its a lot of money and I believe the tone of my Session 400 and LTD 400 is in the ball park.
As far as effects I like a little reverb and echo.
I really like the Lexicon with tap tempo echo.
sounds good.
P.S. I always run my effects before the Vol. Ped.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 4 Apr 2009 8:25 am

Don't do that.
Run the reverb and delay after the volume pedal

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 4 Apr 2009 9:01 am

I agree with Richard. Delay and reverb after the VP.

One possible reason for the difficulty getting "bedroom sound" to the stage is that the ears respond mostly to midrange, so at low volume, you want to turn up both the lows and highs.

Another is the differing acoustic environment. You will probably use more reverb/delay in the bedroom, while on stage the room reflections are added in. Also, there will be a difference in the balance of hard and soft surfaces. Plus, I usually want more highs and less mids on stage with other instruments than when playing at home alone. Some of the differences work in opposite directions.

I suggest that you just relax and not be afraid to fiddle around with the controls. Eventually you will get a setting that you like on stage. Take careful notes of it, then compare it to your home sound, so you can set up different things for each setting.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 4 Apr 2009 9:05 am

John, your question is a good one, as far as I'm concerned. It seems to be true that quite a lot of PSG players these days (likely the majority) take for granted that at least some effects processing--usually delay, as distinct from reverb--is an integral part of the total instrument setup.

I'm like Richard and Mike--I use amp reverb only for PSG. (As a matter of fact, I don't use any "effects" on guitar either these days.) I own several digital multi-effectors, and have used them in the past for guitar, but even then I never liked them for steel. I tried--I don't know how many hours I spent trying to tweak a delay program to get an effect I liked. Bottom line for me was that if the delay repeats were strong enough to give that "floating" extra feeling of movement to smooth bends and slides that I think everyone is going for, the mechanical repeats between staccato notes being audible, however quietly, would drive me crazy. For the same reason I've never enjoyed tremolo--I don't like part of the sound I'm putting forth to be generated by the workings of a mindless machine.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 4 Apr 2009 9:07 am

i find that hilarious that someone would consider the 'true sound' of his instrument to be what come through an overdriven (distorted!) amp and washed in reverb. yeah, boy, that's pure and natural!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Apr 2009 10:03 am

My own sound seems very consistent. I may have to change the treble (+ or -) one number, or the reverb (+ or -) one number, but that's it. I think that the fewer effects you use, the easier it is to dial in a good sound. When you start throwing in multiple effects (especially with a processor, where you have to access the effects on the menu one-at-a-time), then everything affects everything else, and it's harder to keep track of what you're doing.

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 4 Apr 2009 10:50 am

chris ivey wrote:i find that hilarious that someone would consider the 'true sound' of his instrument to be what come through an overdriven (distorted!) amp and washed in reverb. yeah, boy, that's pure and natural!

Not sure what you're reading, but I didn't mention anything about the distortion or "wash" of reverb you seem to be snorting about.
I will say that I mis-spoke in that the "true" sound of a pedal steel is a skinny string whanging against a sliver of metal connected to a system of pivots and pulleys and springs. You could just stick a real high fidelity microphone in front of that and have at it. There's your pure and natural!!!:lol:

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 4 Apr 2009 11:30 am

ha ha..i assumed you liked to crank that amp up a little and push it...you are from austin!
..snort, snort!

John Allison · Post by **John Allison** » 4 Apr 2009 1:37 pm

chris ivey wrote:...you are from austin!
..snort, snort!

Well, you got me there...I won't fault your for your assumptions, though we are a pretty diverse group around these parts.

Which reminds me...see if you can talk several thousand of your closest friends into staying put and not moving here.

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 4 Apr 2009 8:22 pm

I'v had so many people to tell me thru the years that they normally run their Input around 11 oclock and there Output around Maybe 2 oclock. For some reason i have had the input everywhere but. seems like i never really thought of turning back the output much. I done that and i think i found my problem.
Ole WELL live and learn.

Thanks for all the help.
Gary

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 5 Apr 2009 2:49 am

Gary,you think waaaay toooo much about it man. You're overthinking it. Just try to dial it up and rn with it. It's kind of like being a golfer and watching every episode of lessons with the pros or trying every new technique in Golf Digest. Pretty soon you develop "Paralysis By Analysis" !

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 5 Apr 2009 4:05 am

I apoligize that i like to learn more about my sound and equipment, I will never do it again.>>>>> RIGHT<<<<<

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 5 Apr 2009 4:22 am

Double posted

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 5 Apr 2009 4:25 am

If you find yourself on stage and your tone is crumbling, go back to the basics. Guitar, wire and an amp.You may find that you will never add anything else after that plus there is less to carry !

If you are practicing with an effects processor, be sure to edit out all of the EQ in the process patch. If it's delay you are chasing, have the patch contain only delay.

my 3 cents.

less is more but not more to carry.

t

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 5 Apr 2009 5:06 am

For some reason i never thought running the output being a little to much how it can destroy your tone. I know now. It is absolutely great now. I'm glad i'm not to proud to ask questions. Its funny how something so little can have so much effect.
Thanks alot, Gary

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 5 Apr 2009 7:50 am

never hook up effects after the volume pedal will give you trouble to no end. steel to processor to volume pedal then amp is a nice chain. the ins & outs on most amps will cause a hiss for some reason so I dont patch that way. just my 3 cents worth

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