What's really missing in E9?

[Jim Sliff]

When I was trying to get a handle on E9 I was "hearing" single-note things in my head but everything I encountered seemed to really focus on moving harmonies (2 or 3 note moves up the neck with various pedals/levers) - lot of "vertical" motion and thinking. As a 6-stringer, I'm used to "boxes" and "horizontal" playing and I just couldn't find it, especially with the out-of-place chromatics (for me, anyway, due to their non-sequential nature).

And as mentioned before (also another 6-string "feel" item) there was just a huge absence of low end I'd try to play down low but tuning problems became more apparent, and the guitars just didn't have the...ahem..."round objects" for playing punchy, smack-in-the-gut things down low. I had no desire t play the high, whining sound with gobs of reverb, nor harmonic passages with "pretty" sounds - I was looking for punchy, sustained single notes and/or riff-based things in a guitar-like tonal range (no tone or volume controls also tossed me for a loop - and I still do not understand how people can play live without them.)

So I settled on the 8-string, 9+2 B6 copedent (and a 10-string version set up on a 3+4) and couldn't be happier - the tonal range is right where I was "hearing" things, it's lower with far more power and punch, and better-suited (imo) for single-string work (outside of banjo-like use of chromatic strings for speed-demon passages, something that doesn't interest me at all).

[Brint Hannay]

General agreement (me too!) that the greatest shortcoming of E9th is the lack of low range. It drives me nuts sometimes! My unfulfilled yearning is to try a 12-string steel with extended E9th--I don't know exactly how I'd tune or set up the bottom two strings, but I know I want to get lower! I might even want to make that 12-string D9th...or C9th...or B9th...but I love the chordal movement possibilities of the 9th tuning, and it's the main reason I took up, and stay with, pedal steel. For single-string work I much prefer to stick with the six-string "standard" guitar.

(Jim, I know, if I've understood correctly, that you've had physical issues with your hand that have forced you away from the 6-string, and that's of course a whole different ball game. I'm not suggesting, however, that this "disability" is the only reason for your approach to steel.)

[David Doggett]

All the stuff that was missing on E9 for me, I got when I switched to 12-string E9/B6 universal. If only I had a third leg...or a fourth.

[Earnest Bovine]

Marc, depending on your setup, D7+9 is probably available at nearly every fret. Seek and ye shall find!
It may be faster to solve the equivalent problem of looking for all 12 raised 9th chords on the open strings.

Wow. I found a few, but some I can't quite reach (RKR and RKL at the same time: tricky.

I now realize that I could have been more specific. I did find the full chord in my original hunt, but not the exact voicing I was looking for. I like it with the +9 an octave up from the 3.

Right. If you're harmonizing a melody, the voicing depends on a lot of things. But for just comping chords, you would usually play 3 or 4 notes; namely, from high to low:

A (optional)
F (OK, E# for you wankers)
C
F#

[b0b]

Every time I tried 10 string E9th I was frustrated by the lack of low strings. That's why I went to a 12 string extended E9th. The extra range got me a lot a quartet work back in the day.

I've always been able to cover western swing styles on E9th by thinking in terms of E13th and A6th.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

If only I had a third leg...or a fourth.

You have a wrist you're not using.

[Barry Gaskell]

Hi Guys
A fascinating topic that moves us a little further than the standard 9th set up sounds and gives us something to really think about.
To enable those lower 6th chords and bearing in mind I have a D9th, therefore a slightly lower growl.
I lower my 10th string a tone and a half and with strings 7 and 5 gives the equivelent C6th grip of 9,6,4.
On my third floor ( I don't have the 4,5 pull on that as I pull the 4th a tone with a knee lever and with pedals A+B gives me the equivelant B+C with the benefit of the 4,5 split) I sharpen strings 7,5 a half tone and this coupled with the 10th down a tone and a half gives me a load of lower end C6 stuff.
Hi Roger
I use my 4th floor ( pedal A C6th)as an experimenting pedal on my ninth and would be interested in your mentioned pulls of 5+6 up a whole tone and how you use it. It sounds like It could be a useful pedal next to my C floor pedal for 6th
sounds
Cheers
Barry

[Dave Mudgett]

I agree on the lack of low strings - I'm gonna have to put some type of ext E9 on a 12-string guitar and try it out, but right now mine all have universal E9/B6.

Wow. I found a few, but some I can't quite reach (RKR and RKL at the same time: tricky.

You have a wrist you're not using.

Yup, there is the option of more knee levers and/or a wrist lever. There is also the option of rearranging knees and/or adding pedals to do things.

There was a recent post by Dan Rollans about a modified Zane Beck copedent - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 6&start=25 - that I've been looking at to try to glean some ideas. Here's an equivalent of Dan's copedent in Sho-Bud format (Emmons-style pedals with E=>Eb lower on right knee - the original is Day-style pedals):

Code: Select all

Str---lkl--lkr--lkv--p1--p2--p3--p4-(p5)-(p6)--rkl--rkr--
1-G#-----------------A-------A---------------------------
2-F#----------------------------(G#)---------------------
3-E----F-------------F#-------------------------Eb-------
4-C#--------Eb---D-------D-------------------------------
5-B----------------------C#--------------(A)-------------
6-G#-------------F#--A-------A---------------------------
7-F#--(G#)-------------------F----------------------(E)--
8-D---(F)---------------------------------------Eb--(C#)-
9-B----------------------C#---------(C)--(A)--------(A)--
10G#-----------------A-------G---------------------------
11E------------------F#----------C#-------------Eb-------
12B---------------------------------(G#)------------(A)--
---------------------------------------------------------

One big idea here is to put a string with the 6th (C#) in a critical place to better emulate the approach of a 6th neck. I tried Zane's tuning once, and there are several things (like the lack of both E root on string 8 and D# maj7 string 2 equivalent) that make this unworkable for me, but it strikes me that there are ideas here that could be added to Ext E9 if one is willing to live with that tuning going down only to E2 as on standard guitar. Being a guitar player, I'm just fine with that lower range, but am sometimes frustrated with the B2 lower limit.

[Ben Jones]

For me..... its missing a strummable power chord.
Do you uni players have that?

[Larry Allen]

I also found the bottom missing so I put a B on 9 and a low E on 10. The B drops to an A (A pedal), raises to a C# (RKR), the E drops to a C# (LKL), and the 8th string E has a double stop, D#-D(RKL)...Works well!..Larry

[Earnest Bovine]

For me..... its missing a strummable power chord.
Do you uni players have that?

(not uni, but rather ext E9 http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html )
Low D - A - D on strings 12,11,9 with P3 and P4.
A E E A on strings 11, 8, 7, 6 with P2,P2, RKL
I can strum with reckless abandon but as you see this requires some easy muting with the left thumb.

And also these non power chords meaning triads with thirds included, no muting required:

Strummable A major triad across 11 strings (every string except string 1 F#) with P2,P3, RKL

Strummable C# minor triad across 11 strings (every string except string 1 F#) with P2, RKL

[Earnest Bovine]

Here are a few D7+9 for E9 tuning that allow various ways to bend the +9 tone down to the flat 9 or natural 9, or up to the 10th (3rd). Note you may not have all these pedals and knee levers.
These are all on my E9 (see the Zum tuning at http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html ) except for the ones at fret 5 (I can't lower 6 and 9 at the same time but many players can), and the 2 that use a raise on string 7 which I don't have but many players do.

Remember that (F C F#) is also (F C Gb) = Ab 13 chord.

Proofreading is left as an exercise for the reader.
[tab]
F#
D#
G# 1
E 1
B 1
G#
F# 1-
E
D
B
G#
E


F#
D# 2
G#
E
B 2-
G#
F#
E 2
D
B
G#
E

F#
D# 2
G#
E
B
G# 2++
F#
E 2
D
B
G#
E

F#
D# 3-
G#
E
B
G# 3+
F#
E 3-
D 3 (optional)
B
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E 4+ (optional)
B 4++
G# 4
F#
E
D 4
B
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E
B 5+
G# 5-
F#
E
D 5-
B
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E
B 5+
G#
F# 5+
E
D 5-
B
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E
B 6
G#
F# 6
E
D
B 6+
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G# 7++
F# 7-
E
D
B 7
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G# 7++
F#
E 7+
D
B 7
G#
E


F#
D#
G# 8+
E 8
B 8-
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#
E


F#
D#
G# 9
E 8
B 7
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#
E


F#
D#
G#
E
B
G# 8+
F#
E 8
D
B 8-
G#
E

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G# 9
F#
E 8
D
B 7
G#
E


F# 9++
D# 9
G#
E
B
G# 9+
F#
E
D
B
G#
E


F# 9++
D#
G#
E 9-
B
G# 9+
F#
E
D
B
G#
E


F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F# 9++
E 9-
D
B
G# 9+
E


F# 10+
D# 10-
G#
E
B
G# 10
F#
E 10 (optional)
D
B 10 (optional)
G#
E 10 (optional)


F#
D#
G#
E
B 10 (optional)
G#
F# 10+
E
D 10
B
G# 10
E 10 (optional)


F# 11
D#
G#
E
B 11++
G# 11-
F#
E
D
B
G#
E



F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F# 11
E
D
B 11++
G# 11-
E





[/tab]

[Marc Jenkins]

Thanks Earnest!

[Rick Winfield]

A low E, str 12 and above it a Low G#, str 11 would perfect the e9th for me,I could never give up #9 D. Maybe a 4th pedal G# >A# str6, & B >C# str #5
rick

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

For me..... its missing a strummable power chord.
Do you uni players have that?

I have power chords in the E, A, and C# positions, but they're not strumamble. I have to pluck the strings to avoid hitting the 3rds of the chords.

[John Steele (deceased)]

Pardon my pop music ignorance, but could someone please tell me exactly what a power chord is? Is it one that consists only of 1st and 5th ? Are the notes doubled ? Sorry for the diversion, but since it came up....
-John

[Marc Jenkins]

Yes, John, just a 1 and a 5. 'Not the other one'. Maybe a second 1.

[John Steele (deceased)]

Thanks Marc. My father used to play those on his bagpipes.
-John

[David Doggett]

Like Mike P. I have to pluck the power chords (1 5 1) on my uni to avoid the 3rd. But I found that if I straighten my picks out a little I can do forward and back strokes and just hit 1 5 1 with something like a strum. I actually like having the 3rds there, because they work better in many jazz chords than power chords. I am committed to trying to learn to play all genres on a single neck. Yes, some things require more technique if the tuning is not skewed to the single genre you are playing at the moment. I don't switch tunings when I switch genres on keyboards or sax. I feel like I should be able to use a single versatile tuning like a uni and develop the appropriate technique for any genre.

[Ulric Utsi-Åhlin]

Practically all tunings have enough notes to make it
sound like music,all you have to do is to get to know
where they are & the relationship between them(a
lofty goal,agreed...),but what´s NOT there,talking
E 9th,is low register...so,for those who love that
Nashville tuning,EXT E 9th or UNI would be the safe
way to bass notes territory,if I were an E 9th-
player I would follow that path,I´d never be short
of low notes,I need them.McUtsi

[Randy Beavers]

If your looking for how to play the chord as written in "All Blues", the D7#9 has the 5th, an A note for the melody. 4th fret strings 9, 6, 5, and 4 with A pedal and F lever.