What's really missing in E9?

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 1 Apr 2009 9:53 am

I've been working through Doug Jernigan's and Herb Steiner's E9 swing courses. Good times. I've also been learning all kinds of songs of assorted genres lately. As someone who's never played C6 pedal steel, I'm curious as to what chords are actually missing from the typical E9 setups' vocabulary? The first time I've actually been stumped was with a D7#9 I encountered while working on Miles Davis' 'All Blues'. The only reasonable voicing I could come up with required leaving out the b7, which is ok, but not ideal.

What other chords have folks found that just don't work (or work quite right) in E9 that are a breeze in C6?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Apr 2009 10:23 am

For D7#9, I use the A+F position on strings 9, 8, 6, 5 at the 4th fret. It's rootless (3 5 b7 #9). I often leave out the 5th so it's a simple A pedal position. It's a very common chord on E13th non-pedal - no slant required.

It's always a tri-tone (6 frets) away from the root position. E7#9 is at the 6th fret, for example.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 1 Apr 2009 10:31 am

D7#9
[tab]
1------
2------
3------
4------
5---4A-
6---4--
7------
8------
9---4--
10-----
[/tab]

This voicing is rootless. That's one thing you're often "missing" on E9 is the depth, and the root.
I think the whole "C6 on E9" question is puzzling. The E9 tuning is used most commonly for forming pure major and minor triads. 7ths and 9ths come up, but that's as far as alot of people take it on that tuning. Other more extended voicings are available, but you have to search a bit for them.
The C6 tuning is designed for more complicated and colorful voicings. I'm not sure I understand why people think it's such a mystery, except for the fact that, if you don't understand extended voicings and how they work, you won't really be able to use them on either tuning very well. Just mho.
-John

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Apr 2009 10:45 am

The 7#9 is a chord that comes up often in blues as well as jazz. Since I usually play blues on the E9th, I happen to know that one.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 1 Apr 2009 11:00 am

I can't speak for others, but I'm not looking to play 'C6 on E9', but rather to play music on E9, as that's all I've got! I'm looking to expand my possibilities while being aware of the shortcomings.

For example, I see that a lot of people talk about the 'pesky 9th string' or that it would be the first to go. I couldn't do without it, as it provides possibilities for a lot of the more colorful voicings in E9.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 1 Apr 2009 11:27 am

I think "C6 on E9" is a misnomer, though it does synopsize the information in an understandable though inappropriate (MHO) way.

I called my courses "Swinging on E9" because it approaches the songs and progressions not in terms of C6, but in terms of discovering where new grips and pedal combinations on E9 give improved voicings for chords in non-1-4-5 songs.

An E9 player with only straight major/minor referencing might simply lump chord progressions he doesn't quite comprehend by ear as "oh, that's a C6 sound," even though it isn't.

Marc
Hey, thanks for using my material. I hope you're getting a lot out of the courses.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 1 Apr 2009 11:30 am

Herb Steiner wrote:I think "C6 on E9" is a misnomer, though it does synopsize the information in an understandable though inappropriate (MHO) way.

Thanks for putting what I was trying to say more eloquently, Herb. And thanks for the courses. Really helping to get my brain inside the E9 tuning.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Apr 2009 11:48 am

I think E9 is missing nothing but some low-end. It's my belief that it's a tuning that's been conceived with pedals, whereas C6 - at least the 6 or 8 string version of it - is clearly from an earlier era with its closer intervals.

Maybe that's an over-simplification, but with my LKV raising 5 and 6 a whole-step, I don't think there's much I can't get. We're often playing 'reduced' chord voicings, because we're limited to maybe four strings at a time. Sometimes I wish I'd learned to play the piano!

Marc wrote:

'I'm not looking to play 'C6 on E9', but rather to play music on E9'

Me too, Marc - well said. And I feel exactly the same way about the 'pesky' 9th string - I couldn't do without it either and, in my opinion, it's what makes E9 such a great tuning.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Apr 2009 12:11 pm

Roger, I believed you after the third time; ya didn't need to say it a 4th and 5th... I may be dumb but I'm not stoopid...

Oh, by the way, Happy Birthday!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 1 Apr 2009 12:16 pm

What's really missing in E9?

What's missing most for me is not chords, but individual notes between E and B, 4th and 5th strings. Altho every note of the chromatic scale is available, I sometimes can't get the note I want fast enough or smoothly enough. This is the prime string diameter for best tone of a melody so the sound suffers a bit if the solution is to move the bar and play it on different strings.

I've tried many ways to mitigate this problem, such as tuning the 2nd string to C# or D, or adding a C# or D string in addition to the D# string, etc. I've more or less settled on a "standard" tuning with plenty of pedals and knees levers pulling the E, D#, and B strings.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 1 Apr 2009 12:16 pm

Marc, depending on your setup, D7+9 is probably available at nearly every fret. Seek and ye shall find!
It may be faster to solve the equivalent problem of looking for all 12 raised 9th chords on the open strings.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 1 Apr 2009 12:38 pm

I hope I don't get a bunch of repeat posts...

In a Lloyd Green related thread from about three years ago, I supplied the following quote from an outstanding Country Music Journal article on Lloyd that was written by Robbie Fulks:

Lloyd Green, in the fine article about him in The Country Music Journal, had this to say about the development of the Sho-Bud LDG, SD10:
'"I played sessions in suits up until the late 60's, and the C6 neck would unravel the sleeves of my coat. Well I went to my book and counted 595 sessions on the E9 neck in the preceding 12 months. In other words, in my last six hundred sessions, I could only account for five on the C6. So in 1973, I went to Sho-Bud and talked to Shot Jackson about the idea of changing my rear neck to a pad." Six pedals and other parts from the little used neck were put in a plastic bag and weighed in at 18 pounds. The resulting design of the LDG model, with its black Naugahyde pad over an absent fretboard, aims to preserve the double-neck's tone benefits, while eliminating entirely its high-tensile coat abraders, or "strings."

Reduced, on the face of it, to half of the musical hardware of most of his peers, Green proceeded to play all shades of country-including western swing (ironically) on his first post neck removal session for Danny Davis-with a single tuning. "Most (swing) players think you're impotent on E9," Green says. "You can play anything you want on E9. The problem lies in avoiding THINKING. You don't have to think as much with more pedals, more necks, more redundancy." He uses pre-pedal era slants to achieve subtle effects at a tight-rope walker risk level most players would just as soon not assume.'

Far be it be it from me to give advice to anyone, since I'm still a hack on E9th, but I think the second paragraph in the quote is very interesting. Of course we're talking about Lloyd Green here, not a merely mortal steel guitarist.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 1 Apr 2009 1:34 pm

Roger Rettig wrote:I think E9 is missing nothing but some low-end.

I agree. (BTW, Happy belated birthday Roger.) I don't know much about the B6 side of my U-12. but I love having all the extra bass the tuning provides. I have E9 changes on the bass strings so I can play in the lower register. The steel sounds great down there. I think every steel should have 12 stings in order to include the low end.

My lowest note is A below the low E string on a standard guitar, the same note the open A on a bass.

As I mentioned on another thread, I play one tune entirely in the bass register, mostly using the strings not found on the standard 10 string E9. The highest note in the tune is the C# found on the standard E9 low B or 10th string with the A pedal engaged.

If you want to hear a truly great solo played in the bass register, check out Curly Chalker's solo on "Summertime" on the Giants of Swing album.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Apr 2009 1:56 pm

duplicates deleted

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 1 Apr 2009 2:15 pm

Mind sharing your copedent, Mike?

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 1 Apr 2009 3:11 pm

Heck the thing is already tuned to E9.

So just move the tone bar up to D and add another Knee lever to sharp the 9s.

You can never have too many Knee levers.

You could call it the Jenkins Cluster.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 1 Apr 2009 3:49 pm

Roger Rettig wrote:I think E9 is missing nothing but some low-end.

I agree. (BTW, Happy belated birthday Roger.) I don't know much about the B6 side of my U-12. but I love having all the extra bass the tuning provides. I have E9 changes on the bass strings so I can play in the lower register. The steel sounds great down there. I think every steel should have 12 stings in order to include the low end.

My lowest note is A below the low E string on a standard guitar, the same note the open A on a bass.

As I mentioned on another thread, I play one tune entirely in the bass register, mostly using the strings not found on the standard 10 string E9. The highest note in the tune is the C# found on the standard E9 low B or 10th string with the A pedal engaged.

If you want to hear a truly great solo played in the bass register, check out Curly Chalker's solo on "Summertime" on the Giants of Swing album.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Apr 2009 4:23 pm

Marc Jenkins wrote:Mind sharing your copedent, Mike?

Mike sent me his copedent in 1995, and I published it:
http://b0b.com/tunings/mperlowin.html

I don't know how much it's changed since then.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Apr 2009 4:47 pm

Sorry about the duplicate posts, everyone (except JC

); I wrote my little effort, but every time I tried to 'send' it, I got some sort of refusal, saying the Forum was in 'de-bug mode'. I had no idea that it was actually being fed to the Great US Public each time I clicked on it!

That's my story, and.....

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Apr 2009 6:30 pm

Yeah, that's the DEBUG MODE message that I was warning about:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=155683

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 1 Apr 2009 6:35 pm

b0b wrote:
Marc Jenkins wrote:Mind sharing your copedent, Mike?
Mike sent me his copedent in 1995, and I published it:
http://b0b.com/tunings/mperlowin.html

I don't know how much it's changed since then.

Since then I dropped pedal 8, and the inner LKL that raises strings 1 and 4 a whole step. here is my tuning as of this moment.

HOWEVER, in about 2 weeks I'll be moving the G# to G natural change from the inner RKL to a zero pedal. I'm just waiting for Dr Jim to receive the parts from MSA.

Mike Poholsky · Post by **Mike Poholsky** » 1 Apr 2009 6:43 pm

Good thread. I've had a U12 for years and have never played a C6 neck. First guitar was 10 String E9. Having never played C6 I would have to say I've been pretty lazy about learning what all those other pedals do. Seemed to me with the 9th sting root position and flatting the Es (for B6) on E9th tuning, a guy could stay pretty busy learning all that. In an effort to learn the capabilities of my guitar, I recently purchased the Emmons Basic C6th Course. What strikes me right away, is the lack of a root note on top of many of the voicings. Seems like you just keep stacking notes on the bottom strings. 7s,9s,11s,13s,ect. Not always having a root on top has taken a little getting used to. There is no reference to P4 in this course. Is that pedal not used very much?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 1 Apr 2009 7:35 pm

Mike Poholsky:

Right you are! I have (mostly old) C6th instructional materials from Emmons, Jernigan, Wallace, and Newman, and NONE of them use P4, except maybe once in a 50 or 100-page course. The funny thing is, when I just fool around looking for musical ideas on C6th, I find P4 useful fairly often. Especially to avoid having to two-foot with pedals 5 & 7. After all, there's already a D note on string 1, if you follow the near-universal Emmons tuning. (Shameful confession: I think I like the G on first string better! When I had that I had a knee lever that raised string 3 to D, with a half stop for C#.)

But my complaint is how there's so often not a root in the MIDDLE of a voicing!

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 1 Apr 2009 7:37 pm

Earnest Bovine wrote:Marc, depending on your setup, D7+9 is probably available at nearly every fret. Seek and ye shall find!
It may be faster to solve the equivalent problem of looking for all 12 raised 9th chords on the open strings.

Wow. I found a few, but some I can't quite reach (RKR and RKL at the same time: tricky.

I now realize that I could have been more specific. I did find the full chord in my original hunt, but not the exact voicing I was looking for. I like it with the +9 an octave up from the 3. John's/Bob's suggestion works best for my purposes. Hilariously, I realize that I almost had this (fret 5, A+B+RKL(lowers 5 1/2 step):10, 6, 5) voicing, but the almost-t0-bed-brain fell a little short.

Great discussion everyone, and thanks for the help. That's quite the set up Mike!

Mike Poholsky · Post by **Mike Poholsky** » 1 Apr 2009 8:16 pm

How 'bout D7#9 on: Open strings 9,7,6,5,4 with P1 1/2 raise on string 5, P2 1/2 raise on string 6 and KL 1/2 raise on string 4. String 9 being your root D. I think thats right...........
Always a little work to get that spot on P1 1/2 raise.