How Many People Use Sneaky Pete's Copedent?

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 30 Mar 2009 9:12 am

Thanks Ed,

I often tune string 8 to E and like most guitar players I tune string 6 down to D for a few tunes. Nice TAB by the way!

Bob Knetzger · Post by **Bob Knetzger** » 30 Mar 2009 10:00 am

Okay, I'll chime in, too.

I started playing steel 38 years ago and Sneaky Pete was was my fave steeler. Back in those dark days, pre-forum, there was zero info so I was completely self taught. I got a used single eight Fender 400 and put on my own C6th tuning--not the usual pedals but my own changes based on what I could figure out listening to SP. It was 90% of the changes as listed above, just a half step up in the key of C. No chromatic strings, heavier gauge strings, etc. Then got a Fender 800 single 10, with three levers and a high G and a couple more pulls to cover more conventional country sounds and voicings, but still not E9 at all.

I now have a double neck with stock E9 on the front neck, and my nonstandard C neck with a single coil pickup on the back. I have a blast playing country rock and Sneaky Pete licks down there. People joke that the E9 tuning is the "Kroger neck" (where you dependably earn your pay playing just what people expect to hear). I like my other "local deli" tuning where the flavors are more unusual.

I think what gave Sneaky Pete's playing its flavor was those thicker, lower strings, his hot-rodded pick up sounds still based on the thick solid ash body guitar, and the use of echo instead of reverb to help fill in for the lack of sustain...

...but most important was his use of single string lines, much more like a guitar player might play (no "thick" steel grips), That maybe was the "Sneaky-est" aspect.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 30 Mar 2009 10:32 am

Way to go, Bob! Got any recordings online that we could listen to?

I knew that there must be more players in the Sneaky B6th club. It's good to see a few more pickers responding to this topic.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 30 Mar 2009 10:41 am

If I could afford to own another steel, I'd definitely give a serious try to the 10 string SP-esque tuning Jim Sliff posted a while back.

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 30 Mar 2009 2:26 pm

Sneaky is a special player. I'm glad I tried his set up.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 30 Mar 2009 3:06 pm

Hey Marc, my 1000 was only $400 bucks, plus $40 to rewind a dead pickup. I cant beleive these old guitars can be had so cheap, they are great funky old machines.

I might just get a 400 too someday.

I had the priviledge of seeing Red Rhodes old guitar at a jam yesterday. Coolest instrument I think I have ever seen.

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 30 Mar 2009 3:18 pm

Ben,

Was it Red's 400 or 1000 and did you take any pictures?

Russ

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 30 Mar 2009 3:42 pm

It might have been an 800. It was a single neck with ten strings. Ive never seen an 800, only 400's so i dont know if this was an 800 or a severly modded 400.
it had FOUR knee levers

I will try and ask the owner if i can share some of the picures I took of it. I got super excited when i saw it.

Joel Meredith · Post by **Joel Meredith** » 30 Mar 2009 5:00 pm

I play Sneaky's setup on a Fender 400 with 8 pedals and love it.

I started on an E9th 10-string ZB (still have it, sometimes play it) and, based on my musical tastes and my approach to steel guitar, I find that the ZB is actually limiting compared to my Fender, which I'm sure is contrary to popular opinion on the forum.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Mar 2009 7:40 pm

I might be wrong, but I doubt that there are more than dozen players worldwide who use this copedent on their main axe.

I knew that there must be more players in the Sneaky B6th club.

" I doubt there are more..."

"...I knew there must be more..."

Bob - I'm only touchy when someone calls me a liar, which is exactly what you did. In that somehow I've become the "point of contact" for a lot of Fender-related questions/players, I DO have at at least a clue.

YOU even asked me questions about them before and after you bought yours.

So, again - what the heck is your point? In your opening post it was flat-out to claim (based on your limited knowledge of the guitars and their players) that I was wrong.

Why?

Doug, respectfully, I do not think it was a legit question. It was a pointless "stir up trouble" question. And as far as "are the others besides me and some beginners..."

Yes.

Why does b0b care what players play B6? Does it affect the integrity of the SGF? Does it undermine or enhance his own skill level? Is he asking because if he finds out he's wrong he might (gasp!) actually TRY it?

Nah - it was "I've read this claim, and it doesn't fit the "club" view so I'll take a few minutes and try to undermine it - hopefully no one will notice I don't know what I'm talking about since I'm limited to knowledge based on SGF posts...but since I MADE the post on the SGF. and the steel world knows ALL "real" players come to MY forum and ready/reply to EVERY thread that pertains to them, I can prove myself right if people miss the thread - or don't belong to the forum - or have gotten sick of it - or been thrown off!"

This may be hard to accept, b0b - but not EVERY steel player on the planet frequents this forum. Many never come here at all, especially those outside the E9 norm. Lord knows I've had enough folks suggest it would be better for my health if I didn't hang around, since I'm a cancer that is wrecking the "traditions" of pedal steel.

This thread is another pointless exercise intended simply to 1) undermine someone's credibility (mine) and 2) try to steer any "strays" back to the safety of "normal" pedal steel.

Then as it starts to go down in flames and it's made obvious b0b doesn't know what he's talking about, he shifts gears to "I knew there were more!"

bob - you have presented no subject matter that says anything with any substantial backing. You've ben asked to explain you *real* point but have so far refused to do so.

What ARE you doing here? It seems pointless and only meant to annoy folks. Just the kind of thing you chide others about.

Make your point.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 30 Mar 2009 8:19 pm

Gosh, color me naive, but I thought b0b was just interested to find out how many people were using Sneaky Pete's tuning.

I am, too.

I'm not using it, but I play with the idea of trying it out. I think Sneaky Pete's playing proves it's a cool tuning with a lot of possibilities.

Is the info b0b gets from posing the question on the SGF limited to responses from people who've joined the SGF? Of course! Personally, I hope everybody who plays SP tuning is on the SGF, and we will hear from all of them. As much as possible!

I haven't seen where E9th-only players are hostile toward, or disrespect, those who play double necks with C6th, or vice versa, or where "Universal" players (bear with me Jim, I mean the term as it seems to be generally understood here) are hostile toward, or disrespect, the former groups, or vice versa. There's a whole section of the Forum devoted to non-pedal steel. So I think any perception that there's a herd-mentality, closed-minded, E9th-country hostility or disrespect here toward Sneaky Pete-tuned B6th players is not well grounded in reality.

All right: b0b questioned the phrase "very popular". Here's what my dictionary has for "popular":

1: of or relating to the general public

2: suitable to the majority: as a: adapted to or indicative of the understanding and taste of the majority (a ~ history of the war) b: suited to the means of the majority: INEXPENSIVE (sold at ~ prices)

3: frequently encountered or widely accepted

4: commonly liked or approved (a very ~ girl)>

syn see COMMON

It is certainly my impression--granted that I have neither made nor perused any empirical survey--that users of other tunings greatly outnumber users of Sneaky Pete's B6th-------------- A STATEMENT THAT HAS NO QUALITATIVE CONTENT WHATSOEVER.

Nathan Sarver · Post by **Nathan Sarver** » 30 Mar 2009 9:28 pm

I think it is fair to say that Sneaky Pete's playing is very popular - as evidenced by the number of notable artists who worked with him - and, by extension, his copedent. I agree that the original question could easily have been taken as provocative, but doesn't the hostility of some of the responses seem a bit excessively contentious? I'll bet that among 8-string Fender players who appreciate prog-country (I'm still working on something other than "alt-country"

), Pete's copedent is very popular. The motive behind the original question is irrelevant, though I certainly understand Jim's defensiveness. b0b asked a simple question and whether he wrote it with a smile or a frown doesn't make the question any less interesting.

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 31 Mar 2009 3:13 am

the claim of very popular was removed from the context of fender guitars as that whole quote was lifted from the fender site and cross posted here.
in the context of the limited number of members in the fender forum the b6 tuning is a popular way to go with an 8 string single raise/single lower guitar.
if b0b's only intention was to really find out how many players of this tuning existed in the larger steel community he could have used his superior experience with protocol to make it more innocuous.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Mar 2009 4:41 am

Bingo.

[/i]The context (posting it here) and the content - refuting a post made on another forum by cutting and pasting an entire section of a post from ANOTHER forum and questioning its veracity - is not only suspicious in intent, but really poor netiquette.

And as Ed noted, on the Fender Steel Forum the post was in a particular context - posting it here throws the whole thing out of kilter - I think intentionally.

If that post was going to be made anywhere, it should have been made THERE alone. Or start your own thread without swiping material from others.

b0b, I do not lift posts from your forum made by others and post them elsewhere without permission of the poster because it would be rude, and as you've I think mentioned in the past the forum is a private enterprise and not a "public" forum.

The same rules apply in reverse. If you want to lift someone's words from the Fender Steel Forum, you better ask Ed Bierly, Russ Tkac, or me.

Contrary to your own perceptions, you do NOT own the pedal steel internet universe.

Thank you in advance for your consideration in the future.[/i]

Jim

Edited to add - the italics are the original post in that "box". I was mistaken, and I apologize - however, I did not feel it necessary to bury my head in the sand and delete the screwup as so many others have. I made a mistake regarding the source of the "clip" - I was going off Ed (ebb's)'s previous post. Not his fault either, as there are similar statements on the Fender Steel forum.

I also want to use my own complete foul-up as a perfect example of someone reacting to a post in a thread rather than the original source - I've been on the receiving end of that type of backlash many times, and I'm neither infallible nor immune to mistakes.

I apologize for the comments regarding post-lifting.

I still question the intent of the whole thread, however, and b0b's "dozen or so" count is laughable.

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 31 Mar 2009 5:09 am

Jim,

With all do respect to b0b he took your post from the SGF in this thread.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=155371

For what it's worth I don't really care if only a few people play this tuning or not. I still play my E9 10 a lot as well. But B6 is cool and the Fender has a sound!

Thanks,
Russ

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 31 Mar 2009 6:37 am

Sneaky was a great player, no lie. Hey, I knew him, I liked him, and he even helped me in my move to Texas back in the day.

His recorded legacy leaves no doubt that he was a very popular player, but his tuning is not a comparatively popular tuning, in the accepted usage of the word, in the world of pedal steel. If it was, string sets would be packaged, his copedent would be commonplace, etc.

Red Rhodes was also a very popular player, but his Eb6 tuning was not a popular tuning, per se.

I'm talking about the commonly-used defintion of "popular." I'm not interested in parsing words here, or getting into pointless semantic arguments.

Dizzy Gillespie was hugely popular, but few if any trumpeters bent their horn like Diz. Roland Kirk was popular as well, but few saxophonists stuck two horns in their mouths.

Both Red's tuning and Pete's were individualistic in nature, and there's nothing in that statement to diminish any of their accomplishments. In fact, I think it contributed TO their success, since they didnt' sound like Nashville players, a sound the producers of pop acts in CA obviously weren't seeking. (The ones that did hired Jay Dee). And the fact that they were primarily West Coast players, using non-standardized tunings, meant that they were on the margins of the way steel guitar developed in the 1960's in Nashville and elsewhere. Otherwise, they would be LESS individualistic, wouldn't they?

Isn't there something better to do than slap b0b around over a perceived insult that never happened? b0b was seeking information and seemed genuinely interested when he heard from other SP-influenced players. How 'bout considering the whole person (b0b), and while you're at it, turn off the neon sign that says "this way to the chip on my shoulder."

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 31 Mar 2009 6:49 am

I apologize, Jim, for my choice of words. I had no intent to attack your character, but I see how it could be construed that way.

Can we get back to the subject?

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 31 Mar 2009 7:00 am

i think things would be much more interesting if more people did what b0b does by exploring alternative tunings. i like the way he demonstrates different advantages with musical excerpts

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · Post by **Ulric Utsi-Åhlin** » 31 Mar 2009 7:05 am

I´ll stay clear of the debate...lemme just announce
that a PSG set-up like Sneaky´s represents the
inside out personality of the instrument...in my
book,that is...a trad Hawaiian tuning w/ some pedals,
adaptable to any musical style...I say TIMELESS
McUtsi

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 31 Mar 2009 7:12 am

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin wrote:a trad Hawaiian tuning w/ some pedals,adaptable to any musical style...I say TIMELESS

Gret post Ulric. I agree!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 31 Mar 2009 7:15 am

Fender 400 and 1000 pedal steels are unique in that they are the only 8 string pedal steels that exist in large quantities. Also, it's very easy to change the copedent so most 400/1000 players do quite a bit of experimentation.

It appears from the responses that variations Sneaky Pete's B6th are indeed a popular choice for those instruments. The "baritone" steel solos posted here are quite lovely. I think that people who currently use the back neck of their D-10 as an arm rest should give it a try. You can get away from the high and whiney sound of E9th for a while without having to dive into the obscure world of jazz chords and such that dominates on the C6th.

I'd like to see Sneaky's copedent, or some other copedent with "easy" baritone voicing, become more popular. Ideally, it would be great if there was a course for it.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 31 Mar 2009 7:17 am

As usual, Herb hit the nail on the head with his intelligent and thoughtful post.

I just want to add that in all the years I've been paying steel, I've never met anyone other than Jim who played or advocated playing his tuning. Maybe there are other "Pete-o-philes" out there but I am unaware of any.

This in no way detracts from Pete's enormous talent and the quality of his work. But I believe that even as he influenced other players (including me) to emulate some of the things he played, most, if not all of us did so on a standard E9 rather than his tuning.

Aside from that, I just wanted to write the word "Pete-o-phile."

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 31 Mar 2009 7:31 am

Thank you, Mike... for your "thoughtful and intelligent" post.

I've known Tommy Spurlock for decades. Back in 2002 or so, when he first moved to the Austin area from Nashville, he allowed as how was becoming an evangelist for SP's tuning. He also, parenthetically, alluded to the growing dementia that ultimately became Pete's downfall.

But I haven't heard Tommy gig here with that... or any other... tuning, since we don't run in the same circles, I don't get out to clubs much unless I'm gigging, etc. So I don't know what he's made of it.

the obscure world of jazz chords and such that dominates on the C6th.

"Obscure world of jazz chords"?!?!? b0b, how can you be so... so... OBTUSE!?!? So... so... offensive?!?! NOW you've done it!!

My definition of "obscure" is... oh, never mind. I'll get over it.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 31 Mar 2009 7:39 am

Jim Sliff wrote:The context (posting it here) and the content - refuting a post made on another forum by cutting and pasting an entire section of a post from ANOTHER forum and questioning its veracity - is not only suspicious in intent, but really poor netiquette.

I did not do that. I quoted a post that you made here on the SGF. Here's the link:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 86#1360386

I copied it into a new topic rather than dilute the original with an off-topic response.

I just wanted to make that clear.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 31 Mar 2009 9:18 am

Mike Perlowin wrote:I just want to add that in all the years I've been paying steel, I've never met anyone other than Jim who played or advocated playing his tuning.

One of the great advantages of cyberspace is that we are able to "meet" people from all over the world, albeit in a limited fashion. In this very topic, we have met several players who enjoy playing Sneaky Pete's copedent.

The fact that we haven't met these folks "in person" should not detract from the core knowledge that Sneaky Pete's invention is still alive and thriving in the Fender pedal steel community.