Are Push-Pull Guitars Really Any Better?

Chuck Martin · Post by **Chuck Martin** » 5 Mar 2009 3:43 pm

I know that a lot of the older push-pull guitars sell at a premium. I also see that you can still buy a new push-pull if you are willing to spend top dollar. My question is are they really worth it? I've owned several brands of all pull guitars over the years and found all of them relatively easy to adjust. I've never had a push-pull guitar but from what I can tell, the mechanics look like they would be more challenging to set-up and balance. I'm anxious to hear what you guys think that either play them or work on them. Are they worth the extra cost? Do they really sound better? Who's got an honest opinion based on first hand experience!

Thanks, Chuck

Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 5 Mar 2009 4:16 pm

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 5 Mar 2009 4:23 pm

What Peter said.

Throw a log on the fire, make yourself a nice cup of cocoa, and start reading the tomes of testament in the forum's archive to the wonderful push-pull guitar.

God bless Buddy Emmons.

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 5 Mar 2009 4:29 pm

Yes and "pull-release" might even be better according to these comments: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=153489

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Mar 2009 4:42 pm

I've got one, and several all-pulls. The Emmons p/p has a unique tone - bright, lots of sustain, strong mids, great definition on the low strings, rich overtones. It's considered the epitome of pedal steel tone. Many all-pulls get close, but none have ever matched it. But it's a fairly subtle thing that means more to players than to listeners. Apparently even to players, the tone difference is not big enough to cause everyone to play one. Most people don't.

It is more complicated to make changes in the mechanics and to get it tuned properly. And much easier to mess it up thoroughly through ignorance. But once you know all the rules and tricks (published instructions are available) it is doable, and can be setup to play well and to be very stable. But because of the added complications, it's not a great guitar for someone who wants to do a lot of copedent experimentation and personalization. And if you get an old used one that is all messed up, you have your hands full. But there are several gurus around who can put one in great shape, usually for a hefty fee.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 5 Mar 2009 4:47 pm

YES!

Everything the others have said.......

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 5 Mar 2009 4:57 pm

It better be...I just bought one!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 Mar 2009 5:05 pm

It depends on what aspect of a steel guitar is most important to you. If, like me, your copedent is complex and you're not very mechanically inclined, you might find that the tone benefit isn't worth the headache of trying to get it adjusted properly.

I fought one for 4 years. I still love the sound of them, but I don't miss working on my own at all.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 5 Mar 2009 5:29 pm

Yes, yes, and yes. Why do you think that they sell for the price that they do?

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 5 Mar 2009 5:46 pm

I have owned several, I never cared for "That Tone",Too thin! Back when strings were not as flexible as most are today, they broke more strings than any brand,I could never get the 4th string to raise a full tone & lower it a half tone, I had to tune to which change I used most,I never understood why so many thought these were so special? I see why so many that played them, no longer do, Question? why did they change to all pull in the mid-seventies? I have played Mullen for over 10 years & never break strings or have to touch anything under guitar, & much better tone! everyone is entitled to my opinion! Kyle

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 5 Mar 2009 6:03 pm

I have two, a '66 and a '72, that I play regularly, and they hold their tuning remarkably well; while there is a lot of travel in the knee levers I have no trouble with in-between stops like the 4th string E-F-F# by tuning the middle stop with the rod tuners, and the 2nd string D#-D feel stops feel better than on any all-pull I have played. I have had both guitars set-up for me by a pro, but I think I could do it myself now by using that set-up manual. I have heard that it makes a big difference if they are not set-up following the correct procedures, and that a lot of the p-p's that play rough and are problematic are in need of a correctly done set-up. Granted I did not do the set-ups myself, but they have been pretty low maintenance for the few years since being set-up. I have had to do more maintenance and had more failures with the some of the all-pulls I have had. I don't break strings too much because I change them every couple of weeks, but the guitar that broke them the most was my Sho-Bud with the chromed fingers, a few times on the Zum I had, and never (knock on mica) on either of my push-pulls.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 5 Mar 2009 6:28 pm

is 1959 Impala better than 2009 Impala...???... how about 2009 `59 model Impala...?? but, oh my God yes, if you don`t mind the weight or little more complicated mechanics, there is nothing that sounds better than the push pull guitar..all pull may sound ok,good or maybe great but not better than a push pull...

Db

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 5 Mar 2009 6:28 pm

I think that you have to grow into them. I'd suggest owning an all-pull guitar first, get your chops up (10 years or so

) then buy one KEEPING your all-pull as a comparison. Then you can experiment with the copedent on the all-pull and leave the PP alone! Like Lloyd Green, messing with the copedent is not the be-all and end-all. Worry about what you can do with the available tuning and pulls. Spend less time below the guitar than on top of it. Most guitars have way more potential than its owners.

john widgren · Post by **john widgren** » 5 Mar 2009 6:44 pm

Tommy Shown · Post by **Tommy Shown** » 5 Mar 2009 6:52 pm

Absuloutely, the push pull. I have one and I wouldn't trade it for all the money in the world. They hold tuning better and the tone really unique.
I love mine. But again it all comes down to personal preference, what I like you may not. Once again isn't America great or what?.
Tommy Shown

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 5 Mar 2009 7:30 pm

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 5 Mar 2009 7:41 pm

Are Push-Pull Guitars Really Any Better?

yes

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 5 Mar 2009 9:13 pm

'65 Wraparound, and it sings, even when I play it...

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 5 Mar 2009 10:13 pm

The tone of a steel, regardless of whether it's a push-pull, all-pull, pull-release etc is most affected by how it's played.

Right hand picking position relative to whatever fret the bar is over, and the force of the picking, can make even the same steel sound like a different animal when played by different players

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 5 Mar 2009 10:42 pm

David,
What do you mean when you say "strong mids"? I've heard many different explainations.
Thank you,
Mitch

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Mar 2009 3:42 am

Ok I'll play.

No.

Do they sound different, yes,
are some people addicted to that PP tone from the 60's ? Yes.

Do I like that tone ? Yes

are the PP guitars actually any better than others ? No.

The question is are they better guitars, not what tone are you emotionally connected to.

In the words of the famous Mr Seymour, Push Pull Guitars are great guitars, but not all of them. Just because you have a Push Pull doesn't mean it's a great one, it may be to you but to others maybe not.

If setup and ease of making changes is your thing, a Push Pull may not be the best choice.

Sorry guys, the question is, "is it really a better Steel Guitar " and that answer in my opinion is no. If the question is "does it have an identifable tone " ? Then the answer is yes for sure,a great sound.

And, as Richard so eloquently states above, the player still has to get the tone out of the Instrument.

Are we thinking that Loyd thinks the Push Pull is the best guitar overall ?

Push Pulls are awesome sounding Steel Guitars in the hans of the right player and if it is setup appropriatley. It will not make you sound great or play great, something else has to occur.

If you own an original 55 Telecaster , setup with new frets all ,that stuff, do you sound like Danny Gatton ?

Put 50 players on the exact same great Push Pull and you will probably have a few sound the same, a few sound similar, several sound ok but most sounding totally different.

Someone had to write this , may as well be me.

t

Ray McCarthy · Post by **Ray McCarthy** » 6 Mar 2009 4:02 am

Just what is it excactly about the PP that makes sound different--is it the PP mechanics, or something else about how those guitars were made?
Anybody know?

Derby SD-10, NV-112, no effects.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 6 Mar 2009 4:09 am

Subjective. Those that idolize Buddy will say yes. Those that idolize Lloyd will say no.

Personal preference.

Mike Christensen · Post by **Mike Christensen** » 6 Mar 2009 4:34 am

I have never played one so can't say from experience but I would have to go along with everything John Lacey said,especially about most guitars are capable of way more than their owners.If a person is that curious about a P/P I would say you better get one and try it on. There will always be another curious picker out there to take it off your hands if you decide thats not what is holding you back. I have more than enough to do trying to figure out what the heck ALL those white plastic things are for on the right end of my Willy without having to work on it too.

Happy Trails

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 6 Mar 2009 5:18 am

Chuck,

I'm a Push Pull fan for sure, the only guitar that I play. I've played a few others, some very good, some not so good.

But the truth is, it's what I like. Don't mean that others are not good. I think that Tony P sums it up pretty well.

All of that said, I'm very close to the VA / NC border, if you're not too far, and are interested, come on down and give mine a test drive. You can decide for yourself!

The Steel Guitar Forum

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Emmons' Push-Pulls

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