I've gone to the dark side, my New Carter U-12

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 3 Jan 2009 5:47 am

It's black and has plenty 0 strings.
The 6th string has split tuning and compensator.. I really like that compensator for the A/F change, Nice!
I been studying the Jeff Neumann U-12 getting ready for it. Took the red magic marker to the 8th string and it's not so bad getting started.
The XR-16 has very good balance and separation with a crisp sound on the low strings.
The new pedal bar has a real solid adjustable stop and is of course very smooth and easy action.
8,9,10 are the same as 4,5,6 making for easy cool low register stuff.
Also note polished lever and pedals.
I really like this guitar..and its lighter weight.

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 3 Jan 2009 7:54 am

Hey Ken - I hope you like it as much as I like mine:

except I played my 30 year old Emmons D-10 New Years Eve so I might be backsliding for a while!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Jan 2009 10:05 am

Mighty nice instrument, Ken. Have fun.

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 3 Jan 2009 10:38 am

Just like mine except for pickup (mine's a Tonealigner which just fit in case anyone was wondering).Could you tell us a little more about the compensator, please? I still have a problem with tuning that F change so flat; is there a better way?
CR.

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 3 Jan 2009 10:47 am

I just compared endplates. I have a cutout there with nothing in it (I assumed that is where half stops get installed). Now I'm really curious!
CR.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 3 Jan 2009 3:17 pm

Hey Chris,
The 6th string compensator activates with my LKL (F lever).
I just adjust (slight raise) the blue marked hex with the A/F levers engaged Voila! no more slant search on A/F.
Before as I went up the neck this A/F varible (or drop) increases as I move up in pitch and I was always kind of searching having to move quick or chop it off, now I can let it ring and use more changes in that position.
Yes the cut out is for a half stop tuner and I had a lesson with that also... Half Stops don't work well with other pulls, unless they are separate enough to not interfere with each other.
Each additional pull stiffens the action added to the lever or pedal.
I have dialed out the half stop until I can move it.
John Fabien knew this ahead and put the extra pull rod in my case, no charge and was very helpful to me in my transitional learning curve.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 3 Jan 2009 3:20 pm

P.S. this is almost a stock Neumann set up 5/7
Except I lower my Es with RKL.

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 3 Jan 2009 4:06 pm

I added Sho-Bud style 1/2 stops for the 2nd string on both my black U-12's. I also favor the RKL for the e-eb. How's your 2nd string rigged Ken?

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 3 Jan 2009 5:18 pm

Dave,
OK I am new to Uni.. so I was trying to figure this out in theory before I ordered it.
with so many opinions and styles, Ext E9th to Uni.
It was confusing..
I ended up with my half-stop (2nd string)on the RKL E/Eb,...
Bad move as I went to D on my 2nd string my E/Eb was in-between. This is the one John F. gave me the rod for.
I backed off the hex for my half stop..for now, too stiff on the E/Eb for me.
So I will move the half stop to RKR which is my 9th string B/D.
The RKR currently has B/D and 1st String F#/G the G may have to go for now.
I also backed this F#/G off/out to make it easier action. Thinking... Thinking.. what to do.
I also have my 1st and 2nd string go to G#/E giving me a 5 to 1 chord change.. on my LKR,kind of nice. no prob there.
Anybody ever RKR 1st & 2nd string to G and D to get 7th chords for pedals up and pedals down???
All input is appreciated but be nice as this tough for me..

Thanks to all
Ken

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 3 Jan 2009 5:23 pm

Let me send you my copedant. Got on an old computer so when I get home I'll try to send it. It may help. Regards, dave

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 4 Jan 2009 3:36 pm

Thanks for the reply and email, Ken.I'm going to think about that one, and also about adding a compensator on 1&7 for the A6 pedals down chord. My guitar is set up "most requested" per Carter's website, which is straight Newman, I believe. The only change I've made is to retune 1 at the endplate to only raise to G, and the pulls are well enough timed that this gave me a half stop at G on string six.Bonus!I find the half step raise on 1 far more useful for what I want at this time.
My only real niggle is that RKR with 4&8 to Eb AND 2 to C# is kind of a long stiff pull, but I adjusted my seating position a bit; now I'm getting used to it.
Surprisingly little cabinet drop with this guitar.Go Carter!
I'd be interested to see your full copedent if possible.Yours too, Dave O'Brien.
Happy picking,
CR.

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 4 Jan 2009 7:18 pm

Your back will be thanking you for this.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 5 Jan 2009 10:49 am

Are you lowering the 7th string twice, or is that blue tuner some sort of compensator?

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 5 Jan 2009 11:10 am

Yes I also have the 7th string compensator but it is a less noticeable compensation than the A/F 6th string to my tin ear.
My 5th pedal lowers the 7th string also.
RKL lowers Es and D# to C#
I backed off the C# hex to ease the pull till I get used to it.
I have tried to post my copedant that I have on excel but it doesn't come out right when I sent or post it.
How is that screen shot done?
Thanks
ken

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jan 2009 4:00 pm

My Excel stuff worked fine on the old Forum, but I can't get it to work on the new Forum. You have to space everything out with the space bar until it looks right. Then put "tab" in front and "/tab" at the end, but with each enclosed in brackets instead of quotes.

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 5 Jan 2009 9:26 pm

"do or do not, there is no try" yoda

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jan 2009 3:42 pm

Here is my S12 E9/B6 Universal copedent. I’ve labeled the B6 pedals according to the analogous traditional C6 pedals. It sticks close to the classic E9 and 6th neck tunings, with a few additional options.

[tab]David Doggett’s E9/B6 Universal
LKL LKV LKR 0 A B C 8 5 6 7 RKL RKR
1 F# G/G# G#
2 D# E C# D/C#
3 G# A
4 E F F# F D#
5 B C# C# C#
6 G# A A#
7 F# G/G# E F
8 E F D F# D D#
9 B C# C
10 G# A A#
11 E F D# F
12 B C# G# C#
[/tab]

Essentials:
• Most manufacturers’ stock uni copedents don’t extend the standard E9 raises to all the low strings. You miss half the fun of a uni if you don’t at least have the B pedal raise to A on string 10. That gives you the full IV (A) chord on the low strings and allows you to do I, IV Chuck Berry rhythm stuff down there. Equally important is the A pedal C# raise on string 12. It gives you the relative minor (C#m) root, which gives you the power chord down there for minor blues, rock and jazz. With over two octaves of pentatonic intervals, this is one of my favorite positions in blues, rock and jazz.
• If you also add the F raise on string 11, you can toggle between C#m and C# major; and it also gives you diminished (F lever alone) and augmented (F lever, A and B pedals) chords on the low strings.

Optional personal preferences:
• Some uni players put the E lower lever (that gives the B6 mode) on the left leg. But I think most uni players prefer that on the right knee so that the left leg is free to move over the B6 pedals.
• It has become almost standard on uni to add a C# lower on string 2 to the E-lower lever. This gives a scale note when that lever is used for G#m in E9 mode, and also gives a scale note in B6 mode and the equivalent of a D on top of C6.
• Country E9 players may prefer a 5th string lower to Bb on LKV. For blues, rock and jazz, I prefer a raise to G on strings 1 and 7, which gives the b7 with the A and B pedals down, and gives a b5 in the A pedal minor position. Putting a feel stop on the G and letting it raise up to G# is less important, but gives a unison G# in the open pedal position or the A-pedal minor position, and a M7 with the pedals down.
• Some uni players raise the 9th string (B) to get the D. I’ve tried both ways and much prefer to lower the 8th string to D. In B6 this duplicates the pedal 6 IV9 chord, which is the most used 6th neck change (equivalent to the A and B pedal IV change in E9). In E9 you almost never want both the D and E at the same time, but often want the B and D, and when you release the D back to E it harmonizes and doesn’t need to be blocked the way the 9th string D on 10-string E9 does. Some uni players both lower the E and raise the B to get the D two ways; but I don’t have any levers or pedals I want to give up for that second way, and I don’t miss it.
• Unis don’t come standard with the zero pedal to the left of the A pedal. If you order one new, I strongly recommend getting a zero pedal. Even if you don’t have anything definite to put there (such as the Franklin pedal), it is a good place to be able to experiment with stuff. If your uni doesn’t come with a zero pedal, it is a major undertaking to move all the changes over to make way for it later. However, some manufacturers leave a blank pedal spot there even if you don’t order a zero pedal, in which case adding it later is no problem. What I temporarily have on the zero pedal is something I copped from Dan Tyack, which gives a sort of Sacred Steeler all-E chord for sloppy frailing without hitting any out-of-chord strings.
• Most unis don’t have the C6 pedal 6. You can get that change on the lever that lowers 8th string E to D. But if you take your left leg away from the E9 levers to use the B6 pedals, you loose that important IV9 change, so it is nice to have it in its traditional place among the B6 pedals. On the other hand, without pedal 6, maybe you can reach all the B6 pedals from the E9 lever cluster. So that’s a toss up.
• On the C pedal I raise 8th string E to F#. I love the sound of that pull when going to that B and C pedal minor chord. In addition, that allows tuning that pedal stop as the root of that F#m chord, while tuning the F# on string 7 as the 5th of the B chord with open strings 1, 2, 5 and 7. This resolves an E9 tuning issue, but it makes that C pedal a bit stiff.

Well, those are my options and tips. Have fun.

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 6 Jan 2009 4:26 pm

David D.
Most interesting! I have the raises on 10 & 11, but I'm hesitant about raising 12 a whole step on the A pedal for three reasons: a stiffer A pedal, probably more cabinet drop, and most of all I'd lose that wonderful 4/5 chord on 12,10,9,8 w. pedals down.I know there are other ways to get this voicing, but not, to my knowledge,in this register.Any further observations would be most welcome.
BTW, would love to get your CD.please PM me the details when you get a chance.
CR.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 6 Jan 2009 6:23 pm

Chris Reesor wrote:David D.
I'm hesitant about raising 12 a whole step on the A pedal ... I'd lose that wonderful 4/5 chord on 12,10,9,8 w. pedals down.

Yes, your reasoning is sound.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 6 Jan 2009 6:59 pm

David - What about the 5th string lower to Bb when playing the B6 side of the tuning? That's a pretty important change for most 6th tuning players.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Jan 2009 8:31 pm

Looks like a nice axe. Carters are very good-playing and good-sounding instruments, to my taste.

A couple of observations:

If you put the B=>C# change on string 12, you can easily back off the tuning nut if you don't want to use it on something. I have that on at least one of my universals - it does stiffen the A pedal some, but it's not bad. You may have to play around with the leverages to get it to feel smooth.

I agree with Lee - the B=>Bb lower is pretty standard on the B6 side. It would sort of be like operating without the E=>Eb on the E9 side. I know that some players don't have that either and there are other ways to get the note, but I think a lot of players find it useful.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 6 Jan 2009 9:24 pm

Ken-Nice guitar. Does it have the new Magnum pulling system underneath?...al.

:)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Jan 2009 12:08 am

Chris Reesor wrote:I'm hesitant about raising 12 a whole step on the A pedal for three reasons: a stiffer A pedal, probably more cabinet drop, and most of all I'd lose that wonderful 4/5 chord on 12,10,9,8 w. pedals down.I know there are other ways to get this voicing, but not, to my knowledge,in this register.

Well, you pays yo' money, and you takes yo' pick. Having the 12th string raise to C# on the A pedal does make it a little stiffer, and adds to cabinet drop. But neither of those are problems I can't live with on my MSA Millennium, Zum and Emmons p/p 12-strings. I just played around with your 4/5 chord a little. It's a nice sound. But it's not something I would use enough to trade my low minor root for. It gives you a movable power chord down there on the lowest strings in minor keys - very powerful stuff for blues, rock and jazz. I live there a lot.

But this does raise the issue that, if you put changes on those lowest strings of uni, you get more cabinet drop than 10-string E9. But 10-string C6, with three low string stops on some pedals has the same problem, yet people learn to deal with it. Because I tune by ear, I tune to the cabinet drop, which is then not noticeable to me except playing at the nut. With the A and B pedals I get about 2 Hz (8 cents drop). To minimize the problem at the nut, I split the difference. So my E chord is tuned to a reference of 441 (+4 cents), and the pedals drop my A chord to a reference of 439 (-4 cents). Both of those are passably close to the rest of the band tuned to 440. If I tuned either the E chord or A chord dead on 440, as many people do, the other chord would be 2 Hz or 8 cents off at the nut, which would bother me.

The Bb change on string 5 is certainly a favorite of many country players to minor the A chord with the pedals down. There are so many other ways to get minor chords on a uni that I don't miss it. In the 6th neck mode that gives a M7. But, again, there are so many other ways to get a M7 chord, I don't miss it. The 1 3 5 of any minor chord is also a rootless M7 chord. For example, A C E is Am, but also FM7 without the root.

To be honest, I'm not a 6th neck specialist. B6 is mostly another position in E9 for me. I do play some swing style in the B6 mode (as well as rockabilly and T-Bone style jazz-blues), but I mostly approach it as a lap steel, with extensive use of my lever that lowers 8th string E to D, the equivalent of the IV9 chord on pedal 6 of C6. A lot of the things the pedals and levers are required for on C6 can be gotten other ways on a uni. The more I get used to uni as one big tuning, the less useful I find the traditional C6 pedals and levers. But like I say, I'm not a C6/B6 specialist. If I were, I'd add a center lever cluster and put Bb there.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 8 Jan 2009 4:09 pm

Al
I am not sure what the Magnum system is...
Not a option on a standard Carter to my knowledge
but the action on this one is nice and easy.
Intonation is also very good!!!

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 8 Jan 2009 5:25 pm

Hi Ken-Thanks for your reply. I should have been more informative. Does your New Carter have Double bell cranks with the hook on the pull rod in the middle. that is the one they had for years. The Magnum now is more like the Emmons One sided bellcrank with the rod through a hole with a clip on it. I always like the Carters and have had a few, and wondered if they put the rod pulling system on like Mullen, Emmons,MSA, etc...you will sure enjoy your New Carter..al.

:)