I'm not the worst steel player in the world

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 1 Jan 2009 11:10 am

Waylon Jennings my A..
It is a vulgar display of disrespect. It was an insult to country music and it was intentional.
I heard that they wanted to add other country instruments besides the PSG.
They gave up on that because the Juice Harp kept hanging up on Sir Mick Jagger's lips and Charlie Watts couldn’t get the hang of the Washboard.

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 1 Jan 2009 12:26 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote: Either way - they are playing to their audience, not the audience of the typical traditional country band.

So what. It's their show. They can do whatever they want. Still doesn't make it a good decision. They made a mockery of both C&W and PSG (for me:Waylon and Mooney). With all the resources available to them, they should have had done a better job. I wonder what Ringo Starr would say... or done.

Dave... keep the feedback coming. As I've told you in the past, I read an appreciate your input.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 1 Jan 2009 12:49 pm

Yup, Jeff - I expect I'd actually like this with basically competent steel playing. I love playing Stones tunes like Wild Horses, Dead Flowers, Far Away Eyes and the like on steel. I just don't think they intended any mockery. It's just the way they do it, and their fans seem OK with it, so who am I to argue? It's one thing to comment on the playing, but quite another to get into what amounts to musical politics.

I remember when I first started, I played with a band right away - they needed a steel player, and that's what got me going. We played these Stones tunes all the time, and I'm sure I sounded dreadful to an experienced steel player. But our crowds liked it anyway. Nonetheless, I'd be very unhappy with myself if I still sounded like that nearly 10 years later. I'd have to either improve to a level that I find tolerable or put it down. That's just me, and YMMV.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 1 Jan 2009 4:09 pm

I don't think anyone in the Stones intended any sort of disrespect for Country music or for Bob Wills. I think they just had an off day.

Glen Derksen · Post by **Glen Derksen** » 1 Jan 2009 8:32 pm

Alan Brookes wrote:I don't think anyone in the Stones intended any sort of disrespect for Country music or for Bob Wills. I think they just had an off day.

Yeah, but how many years has Ron Wood had an "off day" on pedal steel?

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 1 Jan 2009 8:39 pm

RW's been playing steel 30+ years - amazing.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 1 Jan 2009 8:52 pm

What are the chances that Ron Wood or his guitar tech really know how to tune a push-pull guitar? From what I've read about push-pulls, you can really chase your tail if you don't know what you're doing. Chances are his tech tunes it all straight up, or gets as close as he can by chasing pedals and levers until it's acceptable. I know it's not the only issue, but from listening to his performance on this clip, tuning does seem to play a part.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 1 Jan 2009 10:01 pm

He only uses the two pedals on the left, like Buddy Emmons.

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John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 2 Jan 2009 2:18 am

Not long after I left my pram I worked with a band from Oxford Uk, every other week we would play at a dance hall in Swindon, we would do the donkey work and later a band would come up from London to end the night off, now and again the Stones would play, as I remember they played quite a lot of country songs, Ron was not in the band then but they sounded very country back then, maybe other Uk members would remember that era , early 60's...So country is in there bones..
I don't for a moment think they were disrespecting country music or for that matter the people of Texas but in there way showing respect. i take my hat off to them for including the steel in there show, what harm can it do?

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 2 Jan 2009 4:04 am

I think the Stones have a lot of fun playing 'country', besides that it's again an exposure for the pedalsteel.
How many of us started playing steel after hearing Heart of Gold and Teach Your Children? Are (where) those players on the level of the 'Big Ones', and did they do their chops on a way Jeff Newman would have been prowd of? No!!

What would be the entry-level for a steelplayer to do his thing on stage, especially when he's already a well known popstar?
My 5 cnts
JJ

happy newyear!

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 2 Jan 2009 4:12 am

Is this a private club? Can just anyone join?

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 2 Jan 2009 9:32 am

Johan Jansen wrote:I think the Stones have a lot of fun playing 'country', besides that it's again an exposure for the pedalsteel.
How many of us started playing steel after hearing Heart of Gold and Teach Your Children? Are (where) those players on the level of the 'Big Ones', and did they do their chops on a way Jeff Newman would have been prowd of? No!!

What would be the entry-level for a steelplayer to do his thing on stage, especially when he's already a well known popstar?
My 5 cnts
JJ

happy newyear!

I get what you are saying and I agree with the thrust of it but, Heart of Gold was Ben Keith, so while the steeling may be abit simple on that, I would say that YES he is one of the big ones.

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 2 Jan 2009 11:38 am

Ok, so most of us agree that Ron's performance was a bit amaturish but if a Stone's fan is inspired to want learn to play a steel guitar then I say it's a good thing.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Jan 2009 11:45 am

How many of us started playing steel after hearing Heart of Gold and Teach Your Children?

I think remotely comparing these clips with especially Ben Keith, or even most of Jerry Garcia's recorded work, is pretty far off. If the playing in these clips was very simple but in the ballpark, I think it would sound just fine.

What would be the entry-level for a steelplayer to do his thing on stage, especially when he's already a well known popstar?

Of course, that's a matter of opinion. I think that actually raises the bar just a bit. If you're just starting out, playing for a few people in a bar, that's one thing. Everybody has to start somewhere, and those are perfect places to start getting bandstand experience on an instrument.

Or a different example - how many of you go to kids' musical recitals? I played in them growing up and went to them for my own and others kids. Sometimes the music is pretty good, but sometimes some of it is pretty dreadful - but it's an act of support and encouragement for someone who we acknowledge is learning. But would you continue to go to recitals for kids who didn't practice, never learned, and continued to sound bad for years and years?

Ron Wood is a really fine rock and roll guitar player playing for tens of thousands of thousands of people at a crack for big money. Does not a certain level of professionalism come into play? I've never heard him play any other instrument like that. It would be one thing if these were his first times out. But after over 30 years? Just my opinion.

besides that it's again an exposure for the pedalsteel.

Honestly - if that was my only exposure to pedal steel, and I really thought that was what it was about, I don't think it would make me want to hear more. In fact, it might have turned me away. I guess that's one of my biggest issues with this.

We just used an inordinate amount of Forum space dissing Jimi Hendrix, but now Ron Wood!!!

This is far different than, let's say, sacred steel players going down a different road, or having a different view about how an instrument should be used as happened in the Hendrix discussion.

Somebody please tell me they think that the steel playing in these clips is remotely competent, by any standards, and I will not argue with you except to say our standards are different. Otherwise, I think we're talking about whether or not we think it's a good idea for well-known or legendary bands to present significantly lower than competent steel playing in huge shows like this to huge numbers of people, as compared to hiring a competent steel player. I would far prefer to see the latter. Of course, we have no control over this - this is just a discussion forum, where we discuss things.

Mike Poholsky · Post by **Mike Poholsky** » 2 Jan 2009 12:15 pm

You guys can bash & nit pick all you want. I was born in '55. So in my "coming of age" years, it was Stones, Beatles, Cream, Led Zepplin, Hendrix, Grateful Dead. I had no idea who George Jones, Buck Owens, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard were, not to mention a Steel Guitar. I heard the Beatles version of "Act Naturally" way before I heard Buck Owens. Along the way I heard all those bands playing country & blues influenced music. Then I was introduced to Steel Guitar by some of those same bands and musicians. Today I play Steel Guitar in a band that focuses primarily on George, Johnny, Buck and Merle. I have a DEEP appreciation for Country Music and the role that Steel Guitar has played in that genre by the Greats we all know and love.
"I'm not the worst steel guitar player in the world"
Well, Ron Wood isn't either. All I can hope is that someone sees him play Steel and chooses to pursue it further, to learn about ALL the great music Steel Guitar has been involved in.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 2 Jan 2009 12:28 pm

Dave, the audiences at these big rock shows like to see the band members play instruments they arent known for playing. They also occasionally like to hear the band play songs in a differnt style than they are known for. These are both very old and very common rock show gimmicks no? Krist Noveselic playing accordian with Nirvana. Metallica covering LaBamba.

Its a show, and these are little novelty elements in the show just like costume changes, stage props etc.
Nrvana could have gotten Frankie Yankovic to play accordian...its just cooler to have a band member playing it even if he's not the greatest accordian player. Its cooler for the audience for Neil Young to pick up the banjo for a tune than it would be if he had Bela Fleck walk out there. Cooler for JP Jones to pick up the Mandolin with Zep than to haul Grisman up there for a number. (there must eb a milion better examples but none come to mind atm)Its cooler for the audience to have Ronnie play the steel for a one off country cover than to hire Paul Franklin. Would anyone recoginize Paul behind the steel in the very unlikely event that the jumbotron cameras happen to show 2 seconds of his face during the song? Could the audience tell the difference in the steel playing? probably not. For them its cooler to see ronnie playing that sit down slidey guitar for that one song.

I think I can say with alot of confidence WE are the only ones who notice anything wrong with Ronnies steeling. For the audience it was novetly moment in the show.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Jan 2009 12:45 pm

Of course, it's a show. But the reasoning you're using is precisely why I almost never go to large rock shows anymore. I'm also a boomer who grew up with Stones, Beatles, Cream, Led Zepplin, Hendrix, Grateful Dead, and lots more, and I think things are a far cry from back in that heyday.

Hey, to me, the bulk of the "big music" biz has turned into a freak novelty thing. Not that anybody cares, but I'll just go to a small club or converted theater and hear musicians who actually care about music. I'm not just a crusty old phart - I know tons of younger music fans that feel exactly the same way.

Everybody seems to wonder why an awful lot of people don't seem to be willing to pay for or care about music anymore. Maybe it's because they perceive it's just a circus these days. If you think that's good - look at the rise and demise of the big circuses.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 2 Jan 2009 1:00 pm

Dave I hear ya man. I cant go to the big shows for many many reasons. I dont think this is a new thing in showbiz tho. Im hurtin for examples..I wasnt around to see the big bopper or the beatles

For the keep country pure folks, heres a reverse example:
Hank Jr in the 80's used to start some of his shows by coming out and doing a blazing heavy metal guitar solo on a les paul. The audiences loved it! why the hell didnt he hire Yngwie malmsteem to do the shredding tho?
were metalheads insulted? naw, we thought it was cool some country goober would try to rock out. Now if Bocephus had continued to rock out for the enitre two hours show, his audience would have started boo-ing. they came to see some country music, not some gawdawful rock rackit, but they liked it as a novelty part of the show.

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 2 Jan 2009 2:46 pm

Hay Ben... I bet Hank Jr. sounded better on the heavy metal licks then Ron on his Country licks :-)

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 2 Jan 2009 4:40 pm

Jeff Hyman wrote:Hay Ben... I bet Hank Jr. sounded better on the heavy metal licks then Ron on his Country licks

you got that right Jeff!
Jr. could shred pretty well, much better than Ronnie can steel.

I gotta admit it. It IS a bit perplexing that he actually seems to have gotten worse after thirty years. Ronnie that is, not Jr.

Jeff Watson · Post by **Jeff Watson** » 2 Jan 2009 5:31 pm

I liked it better with the steel than I would have without it. And if any of you folks out there are playing at about Ronnie's level.... I'd be glad to find you playing at my local bar instead of there not being a steel player.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 2 Jan 2009 5:51 pm

Doug Beaumier wrote:He only uses the two pedals on the left, like Buddy Emmons.

Are they serious ?

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 2 Jan 2009 11:54 pm

Alan Brookes wrote:
Doug Beaumier wrote:He only uses the two pedals on the left, like Buddy Emmons.

Are they serious ?

They dumbed down the blues, so I guess they can dumb down the pedal steel as well! Just having fun!!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 3 Jan 2009 1:37 am

As long as musicians are having fun on stage and the audience loves it, it's ok to me, whether they have their chops down or not.

Its a show, and these are little novelty elements in the show just like costume changes, stage props etc.
Nrvana could have gotten Frankie Yankovic to play accordian...its just cooler to have a band member playing it even if he's not the greatest accordian player. Its cooler for the audience for Neil Young to pick up the banjo for a tune than it would be if he had Bela Fleck walk out there. Cooler for JP Jones to pick up the Mandolin with Zep than to haul Grisman up there for a number. (there must eb a milion better examples but none come to mind atm)Its cooler for the audience to have Ronnie play the steel for a one off country cover than to hire Paul Franklin. Would anyone recoginize Paul behind the steel in the very unlikely event that the jumbotron cameras happen to show 2 seconds of his face during the song? Could the audience tell the difference in the steel playing? probably not. For them its cooler to see ronnie playing that sit down slidey guitar for that one song.

I'm with you on this, Ben but I would love to see Paul upthere!!!
But he is no part of their show. Would everyone also pick on this when, say, Shania Twain, slided a few tones on a steelguitar during her show???

Zeke Cory · Post by **Zeke Cory** » 3 Jan 2009 6:13 am

When I first started and got my chance to just set in and play chords with a band, what he does on this video is about all I knew or was able to do, maybe plus one or two simple licks. While this was a bit different situation the Rolling Stones were in, starting early, albeit before I was actually ready or even good enough, was the best thing I did to progress my learning curve. Remember guys, the steel is toted as one of the hardest instruments to play. I have found that to be quite true. I believe they did as good as they could have on this song. They just do not know country as most of us do. Just my respecful opinion. Thanks. Zeke.

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