Fattest Stringset for C6 Family of Tunings?

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 27 Dec 2008 11:39 pm

After making a decision last night to delve into the C6/A7 family of tunings, I went to Guitar Center tonight to get a couple of sets of lap steel strings. Well, you probably know how that turned out. "We only carry those on line." They did offer me two sets of D'Addario XLS 490 strings for 10-string E9th Pedal Steel Guitar. They gave me a big discount so I figured that I could use 6 of the 10 strings in the set, but which 6?

The gauges are 13, 15, 11, 14, 17, 20p, 26w, 30w, 34w, and 38w.

Who and how are recommended string gauge sets determined? In general, are they for a specified scale-length lap steel? The reason I ask is that I have a Morrell lap steel that I would have returned except for the fact that I replaced the factory strings the day I received it. As an honest man, I didn't "feel right" about returning something after I had changed the strings. The scale length is about 20-5/8".

My 6 string Rondo, which has a screwed up bridge, and needs a nut filing adjustment is a 22.5" scale length. My Variax 300 electric has a scale length of 25.5".

Ok, I know that a shorter scale length can utlize strings that can be tuned higher than instruments with longer scale lengths, right?

My question is:

Assuming that I correctly (or incorrectly) feel that fatter strings equals better tone, AND I am tuning within the parameters of the C6 family, would this work for my short scale Morrell: 17, 20, 26, 30, 34, 38 (in C6 tuning)?
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If so, would the above gauges also work on the 22.5" Rondo? Or, should I go with 15, 17, 20, 26, 30, and 34 (or 38)? Keep in mind that the lowest string will sometimes be C and sometimes will be C#.
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The long-scale Variax is a different story. I would like to install the fattest strings possible, while still remaining in the "C6 family". In other words, I don't mind tuning this one down to A6 (A-C#-E-F#-A-C#) or even G6, since this beast has the capability of using a "virtual capo" allowing me to instantly switch between any tuning within the C6 family. Keep in mind that with this feature, the ACTUAL strings on the guitar will remain in the original tuning. In other words, if I use fat strings and tune to A6, the acoustic sound will still be A6. The string tension will remain EXACTLY the same no matter which tuning I select with the knobs and switches on the guitar. The sound coming from the amp (or into recording software) can be A6, C6, E6, or any other "6th" tuning within the family. It is kinda like a magic trick.

Bottom Line Question: Is it correct to assume that fatter strings equals better tone on a lap steel? Or, is there some other reason that C6 stringsets use smaller gauge strings, other than the risk of breakage? I play with bare thumb and fingers. It is true that fatter strings are harder on the flesh. I know that some here prefer floppier strings for various reasons.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 28 Dec 2008 12:05 am

I just follow this chart regardless of the scale length. Works for me.

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 28 Dec 2008 12:58 am

I think the chart works pretty well, although some prepackaged sets go heavier than the chart on the lower strings. So does Cindy Cashdollar: .010, .014, .018, .026, .028, .036, .046, .052

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 28 Dec 2008 2:11 am

Hey Lynn,

Your post shows 8 strings. I only have 6. Which two will you eliminate for a 6 string tuning?

Are you talking 14 to 46? Or something else? Is Cindy using a "standard" C6 tuning?

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 28 Dec 2008 3:10 am

Hi Brother Doug,

I have printed out your chart and thumbtacked it to the wall. Although, I think it is somewhat generic. Even though it is not a lap steel, I have an instrument called a Mobius Megatar. It has 6 guitar strings (tuned in parallel 4ths) and 6 bass guitar strings, also tuned in parallel 4ths. The highest string on the "guitar" side is a .009. It is tuned to a "D note". If you tried to tune that string higher it would bust like three tens in a blackjack game! This instrument has a 34" scale. So, the fact remains that scale length is directly related to the amount of tension a string can take up to the point where it goes "BOOM!". Hey, you could put an eye out with that thing.

In another thread a while back, a dear friend of the steel community (Mr. Aiello) said something to the effect that a string sounds best just before its breaking point.... He also mentioned something to the effect that "inharmonicity" also occurs in that general vicinity. Let's hear more about that, eh?

What I want to know is where is that sweet spot in between "sounds best" and "inharmonicity"? For the record, I did mention 3 different scale lengths of lap steel instruments, or instruments that WILL be played in the lap using a steel/tonebar.

Now, hang on there..... before anyone thinks I am criticizing Mr. Beaumier in any way. I LOVE this guy! Doug is offering big-time most wonderful stuff on his website. For about a buck a song, he offers tab for 60 of my/your favorite tunes. And, he gives you some great BIAB backing tracks. Although his offering is for E9th Pedal Steel, he gives you his arrangements for FREE in the form of the Band-In-The-Box files. Yeah, I know.... who cares about pedal steel tabs in E9th tuning?

Well, forget about the tuning for a moment. It is probably worth buying BIAB just for these arrangements. The tuning doesn't matter a hoot! What he offers you FOR FREE is his arrangements in one and two and three-part harmonies! If you know anything at all about arranging your own tunes in ANY tuning, you can take what he has here and transfer or transpose them to your OWN chosen tuning. Ok, it is true that you cannot directly transpose EVERY single chord to your own chosen tuning, but you can come pretty dang close. In my opinion, Doug Beaumier is offering you some solid gold. All you have to do is take the time to download the 60 songs. I did.

One last thought on this: You might say that Doug "plays" the song in the "wrong" key or with the wrong tempo. With BIAB, you can push a button and transpose the song to the key and/or the tempo of your choice. If he chose to play the harmonized melody in 3rds and you prefer 6ths, no problem, change it to your taste.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

Anyway, who decides these generic (or otherwise) string gauge charts? Doug's string gauge charts says that a guitar Hi E string can be .013 to .015. I have always used a .016 for my Hi E string in Open E tuning...... It gives a fat and rich tone for single-note (single-string) blues licks, ala Elmore James, Hound Dog Taylor, etc.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 28 Dec 2008 5:36 am

He also mentioned something to the effect that "inharmonicity" also occurs in that general vicinity. Let's hear more about that, eh?

That's not what I said ...

...

Tension and stiffness ... are two different variables associated with string behavior ...

Getting a string to act "ideally" ... like a hypothetical ideal string* ... is associated with the Tension to Stiffness Ratio of that string ...

Let me try to explain without boring y'all out of your skull ...

When I taught Physics ... we did variations of a classic experiment (one done in just about every first year physics course, everywhere) ...

Since I liked this stuff ... we took it a tad farther than most curriculums dictated ...

These days ... you can find that experiment all over the internet ... here's two, to give you an idea of the setup ...

http://phoenix.phys.clemson.edu/labs/22 ... index.html

http://www.physics.isu.edu/~hackmart/spl1sws.pdf

Anyway ... I had kids bring in various strings ... plain, wound, bass guitar strings, classical guitar strings, etc ...

The bottom line was ...

The strings "behaved" the most ideally when:

1) The tension was about 90% that of which broke the string ...

2) The stiffness of the string was low ...

Tension was measured in kg ... easy to do ...

Stiffness ... well, think of the ability to wrap a string ... under NO TENSION ... around a pencil.

A small gauge plain string ... like a 0.008" E string from a set of "slinky" electric guitar strings ... easy to wrap ... stiffness is low.

Classical guitar nylon strings ... low degree of stiffness ...

Plain 0.026" steel string ... high degree of stiffness ...

Wound 0.024" vs Plain 0.024" ... wound is less stiff ... because a wound strings stiffness is largely a function of it's core diameter ...

Anyway ...

Take a 22.5" steel guitar ...

EX: If you put that 0.008" slinky string on ... because of the "stiffness" factor ... the tension of that string tuned to a Hi E ... is so low ... that it deviates from "ideal" behavior ...

But increase the tension to about 90% of its breaking point by raising it's pitch ... and it acts very close to that of an ideal string.

EX: Run a test on a 0.026" wound string vs a 0.026" plain string ... and you'll see the wound acts more ideally because of the stiffness factor (even though its at a lower tension) ...

So it's all about that Tension/Stiffness ratio ...

My advice ... buy individual strings ... and experiment abit ... till you find the strings that suit you ...

Charts like the one Doug posted above are good starting places ...

Then go heavier ... exchange plain for wound and visa versa ... etc, etc

Experimenting with stuff is fun !!!!

Hope that helps ...

* Ideal String = one that has its harmonic nodes in the locations predicted by the mathematics ....

Deviations from ideal behavior = inharmonicity ...

Gary Boyett · Post by **Gary Boyett** » 28 Dec 2008 6:05 am

You can buy string sets right here from b0b. He has sets and also individual strings. There is also a good string chart on this site as well.

At the top of the page there is a tab called strings. Click on it and the lap steel strings are there.

Have fun.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 28 Dec 2008 8:28 am

Ray, thanks for your kind comments above. I appreciate it! Happy New Year to you and all forum members!

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 28 Dec 2008 4:44 pm

Using an E9th set of strings, I would use .014 for the high E string and .034 as the C#.

My general preference for C6/A7 would be:

E .015
C .018
A .022
G .024w
E .030w
C#.034w

On a 24.5" scale guitar or higher, I would go with .014, .017 and .020 for the plain strings.

Welcome to the world of C6/A7! It is in my opinion the most versatile tuning.

Chris

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 28 Dec 2008 9:38 pm

Ray Langley wrote:Your post shows 8 strings. I only have 6. Which two will you eliminate for a 6 string tuning?
Are you talking 14 to 46? Or something else? Is Cindy using a "standard" C6 tuning?

As I understand it both "C6 high" (low to high ACEGACEG)--which Cindy uses, and "C6 low" (low to high GACEGACE) are considered standard C6 tunings.

For six string I would use CEGACE as those are the strings I use the most, but I'm sure there are other variations.

So yes, .014 to .046.

I agree with Rick that you have to experiment to find out what works for you.

Apropos of nothing, I couldn't figure out how Cindy got such a full tone from that .010 first string on her DVDs. While I assumed it was primarily an issue of technique, I tried several different gauges there before I realized she was working the volume pedal to bring out the first string.

In the process I discovered that transitions between the top three strings sound better if I use gauges that are closer: instead of .018, .014, .010, I ended up with .018, .015, .013.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 29 Dec 2008 4:30 am

Rick, as usual, you made a complex subject easier to understand. I found a neat string calculator chart on line:

http://www.terrydownsmusic.com/technote ... TRINGS.XLS

There are 5 tabs at the bottom. The first one is "String Calculator".

I understand about entering the note and the octave and the scale length.

How would you go about determining the tension in pounds and the k factor?

Gary, my first order for steel strings was right here on the forum. But, my trip to Guitar Center was a small emergency. I had a gift card that was burning a hole in my pocket and I needed strings RIGHT NOW!

Doug, you are very welcome. Sometimes the best way to hide a treasure is in plain sight. Ditto on the Happy New Year to all. To reiterate the treasure on Doug's site: Download the songs you like. Load it into BIAB and print out the piano part. The contains the full arrangement that is actually played by the steel in his tabbed lessons. If you are playing in a different tuning, your tab will be different. But, the arrangement contains all the notes and harmonies. This alone can be a good learning tool to see how someone arranges various songs.

Chris and Lynn, thanks for the advice on the string gauges. While I agree with everyone that experimenting is FUN, it can also become expensive. I was hoping to take advantage of the experimenting and experience of those who have gone through this process. Fortunately, this thread was very helpful for me.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 29 Dec 2008 9:13 am

If you want to calculate tensions ... and use them for putting together a custom set ...

This is a nice little program to have ...

http://www.kennaquhair.com/ustc.htm

It has all the data programmed in ... for "plain" strings up to 0.026" ...

And wound strings from 0.020" to 0.066" ... albeit calculated via phosphor bronze string data ... but that'll be close enough ...

Here's the readout for Chris Scruggs' set ...

This chart ... gives you the approximate breaking loads of plain strings ... if anyone is interested ...

http://www.mjwire.com/mjw_music.html

Have fun ...

Blake Wilson · Post by **Blake Wilson** » 29 Dec 2008 2:31 pm

In a pinch, Ray, forget about all this pointy-head calculator-bashing stuff and just buy a set of Scotty's C6th tuning strings from JustStrings for $4:

http://www.juststrings.com/sit-sc-a6th-6.html

These work just fine and a set will give you more time to play than crunch a bunch of numbers. Unless, of course, you *like* to crunch numbers...

Blake

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 29 Dec 2008 8:10 pm

Rick, that set of programs you posted was exactly the stuff I was hoping to find. Thank you!

I like to talk about physics and "string theory" as long as it doesn't get over my head. I feel the same way about pigeons....

Chris I just now used your string gauges, with the exception I had to use a .020 instead of a .022.

Blake, thanks for the tip on the low-priced strings. Lately it seems I have been changing stringsets more often than my underwear. Now that I have settled on a tuning, maybe I can actually do some real learning.
But, truth be told, I do enjoy the number crunching and making diagrams, etc.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 29 Dec 2008 10:58 pm

Thanks to all of the most excellent input, I think I have a pretty good handle on string choices for the C6/A7 tuning. Just to make sure I am crystal clear on all of this, I would like to state my understanding of the concepts once again.

In my original question, I wanted to use the fattest set of strings that are practical and PLAYABLE, while remaining within the parameters of the C6 family of tunings. I've done some scribbling and chart-making. The C6 family formula is: 1-3-5-6-1-3 (low to high).

So, a low A6 tuning is: A C# E F# A C# (low to high).

According to Doug's String Gauge Chart, the gauges are:

40-44, 34-38, 28-32, 24-26, 20-22, 16-18

If I am understanding all this correctly (for low A6 tuning):

For my 20-5/8 scale instrument I could get away with: 44-38-32-26-22-18

For my 22.5" scale instrument I could use: 42-36-30-25-21-17

For my 25.5" scale instrument I could use 40-34-28-24-20-16

Is that right? Maybe I could even fudge a thousandth or two on the fatter side?

The A6 Tuning is a minor third lower than the C6 tuning. Would this be, in effect, a "baritone tuning"? Other than turning my bare fingers into hamburger meat, is there any other viable reason why this is not a good idea? I have trouble hearing many of the really high notes anyway.... This may seem like I am overly concerned with tunings and tone, but I prefer to "measure twice, and cut once". And, I do vastly prefer a mellow, rather than a shrill tone.

Blake Wilson · Post by **Blake Wilson** » 30 Dec 2008 7:48 am

Ray, for an interesting experiment, which doesn't require learning a new tuning per se, try out Don Helms' E13th tuning, which is really just the "standard" C6th tuned up a third. I know you're into "fat" strings, but the higher gauges on the high E and G# really give you that '50's steel sound popularized by (obviously) Helms, if you're into that sort of thing. It also gives my playing a little more sweetness that's kind of hard to describe; I think I play a bit softer because of the higher register of the tuning. Anyway, good luck on the math!

Regards,

Blake

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 30 Dec 2008 10:07 am

For anyone who buys Jagwire strings here on the forum, how would you compare the sound of the stainless steel windings vs. nickel?

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Dec 2008 11:02 am

Don't get too hung up on "fat strings". Strings that are too tight don't lobe properly and therefore lack sustain and their harmonics are squirrely. Refer to Doug's chart.John Ely has a similar chart on his website as well as a lot of useful info on the practicality of various tunings,etc. Pick a 6th tuning you where like the sound of it's range,start with the recommended strings for those notes,experiment a bit till you dial it in,write it down and stick with it. If you like fat strings,you might gravitate to an A6th but they're still not gonna be any tighter than they're supposed to be. I can appreciate all the geekness of figuring out tension,stiffness,modulus of elasticity,etc but I can just push down on the string and tell if it should be a thousandth or two higher or lower gauge for the note it's tuned to. Buy strings individually so you won't be wasting bucks on un-needed strings. You might want to look around for a nice 8-string steel so you can have a couple more tacos on your plate - believe me you'll instantly dig the musical elbow room it provides. Again - refer to the charts. Someone already did all those calcs and experiments. My two cents.

I do like that string calc program though.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 30 Dec 2008 12:18 pm

I feel like I have just graduated from String Gauges 101. Really! With the information I have learned in this thread, I feel confident to select gauges for the tunings I will be using. And, that was the entire purpose of asking the questions. I now know the answers to questions like, "Why is this set used for C6?" and, "Who says so?"

Blake, to be honest, the Don Helms sound is what I am trying to avoid. My wife has an inner ear disorder called Meiniere's Disease. High pitched sounds can drive her berserk. All my musical life I have played soft fingerpicking, non-amplified acoustic music as a compromise. What I always really wanted to play was overdriven blues, standards, and love songs on an electric instrument. So, now I have my lap steels, for ME..... I practice unplugged so as not to disturb her. I plug in when she is out of the house. And, in the meantime, I have headphones for those times when I crave volume. Don't get me wrong, I like Don Helms. I just think, for me, tuning down a third from C6 instead of tuning up a third from C6 is the way to go to keep peace in the valley.

Michael, great advice.... Thank you very much! I especially like your idea of the "touch test" for testing for proper gauges. You are so right about the need for an eight string. Maybe next lifetime....

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Dec 2008 1:47 pm

Sounds like you might wanna mellow on out and try the baritone Weissonborn approach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krdePRYdKNI

or just use a regular scale legnth and just tune it down like this guy who uses a C tuning (modal CGCGCD instead of C6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex7KhLh8 ... re=related

DADF#AD or DADADF# would give you much the same kind of thing.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 30 Dec 2008 3:25 pm

Hello again Michael,

I probably would not play a Weissonborn if somebody gave me one! That may sound surprising, but I just don't much care for the acoustic lap slide/lap steel sound.... I own Kelly Joe Phelps DVD and Bob Brozman's 2 DVD set on Slide Guitar for Blues: Lap Style. Neither of them gave me very much of what I am looking for.

Here is a long thread (started by me) on various tunings for 6-string lap steel playing:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=148111

I have been playing fingerstyle, and some slide, in Open D, Open E, Open G, etc. for many years. I'm not a big fan of bluegrass, western swing, etc. I do LOVE the raw blues and slow, beautiful love songs and ballads. The major tunings are truly great for some styles, such as Elmore James, etc. But, I am now seeking more complex harmonies and chordally based solos. I love the "ice cream" or "popcorn" chord changes such as I-iim-vim7-dom7th. In the key of C this is: C-Am-Dm7-G7.

Open E/D is also a great tuning as an introduction to learning lap steel, in my opinion. Many tunes can be played completely in 3rds and 6ths harmonies without any reverse slants. But, I am seeking more than just that. It is just a matter of personal taste and "different strokes for different strokes". I know enough about music to make my own arrangements. I feel that once I learn the various "grips" and harmonies using slants, I will be able to produce the sounds that are in my head.

Who knows? Maybe C6/A7 or others in this family will not be the final answer but it looks like I will need to give this a diligent tryout to know for sure.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Dec 2008 10:26 pm

I am now seeking more complex harmonies and chordally based solos.

Well the C6/A7 is what you want for that as far as a 6 string tuning. If you had 8 strings you could try Junior Brown's C13 or Joaquin Murphey's C6/A9.

Blake Wilson · Post by **Blake Wilson** » 31 Dec 2008 9:54 am

And don't forget the Leavitt tuning and Mike Ihde's excellent songbook, "A Different Slant", if you're into "complex" chords. Great stuff and not particularly difficult or obtuse.

Regards,

Blake