string chiming ? ..Help

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

Cuz'n Jody........does "JODY's CHIMES"......

[Ron !]

Chimes on a lapsteel steel guitar(where it originated)was done while dampening the strings with your palm
Harmonics as mentioned in several posts has nothing to do with playing chimes.The word "harmonics" comes from "harmonizing" tones.

Listen to "Maui Chimes" by Jerry Byrd for example.

The style that Jerry is using in that song is "not" playing harmonics like some of you mention.It is a combination of Flageolette and Chimes.
Usually Flageolette is played on a regular guitar where you can push the strings down "on" the fret instead of in between them.

It can be done on a lap and pedal steel as well.Easy way to do it is on the 5th, 7th and 12th fret.

Then there is the trick of putting your bar on the twelfth fret and pick the strings "behind" the bar.
These are all little tricks that Jerry and many lapsteel players were using back then.

But it is called "chimes" and not Harmonics.
Just to throw in my 2 cents here.

Ron !

[basilh]

Chimes on a lapsteel steel guitar(where it originated)was done while dampening the strings with your palm
Harmonics as mentioned in several posts has nothing to do with playing chimes.The word "harmonics" comes from "harmonizing" tones.

Listen to "Maui Chimes" by Jerry Byrd for example.

But it is called "chimes" and not Harmonics.
Just to throw in my 2 cents here.

Ron !

Then the Oahu course from the 30's and most of the European players and I dare say all of the UK lap steel players have been using the wrong terminology.. I think not Ron..

From the previous page..





As I said from the last post on the previous page.. The source = The Oahu course 1949 reprint of a prewar lesson..
ARTIFICIAL Harmonics is the accepted terminology in most areas of the world., I don't think the USA has 'Carte Blanche' on determination, but even if it does the USA Oahu publication contradicts the "Chiming" proponents somewhat..In all the years I've been playing (55) I've only heard the "Chimes" term used regarding PEDAL steel techniques.

[basilh]

I personally prefer the knuckle harmonic, which produces a crystal clear, bell like sound.

Buddy Emmons is the best I have ever seen using this technique. I believe it was Buddy Charleton who once said he saw Bubby practice NOTHING but these harmonics for 4 hours one night, back stage at the GOO.

When you see and hear him do it, I believe most would say also, practice does make perfect. But there is one caveat to this.......

I have tried it but simply cannot do it. After 50 yrs of palm harmonics and finger harmonics, I quess the old adage, "Ya 'caint' teach and old dog new tricks", is still appropos.


Oh well

carl

[Brett Day]

A few years ago, I was watchin' the Opry one night and Loretta Lynn was doin' a song called "Table For Two" and the song featured some pretty steel played by Charlie Archer. While Loretta was singin' the second verse, Charlie was chiming on the steel during the middle of the second verse, and he was chiming using either his middle or ring finger. I usually chime with my middle finger, but I've seen and heard chiming in several different ways.

Brett

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I use the heel of my hand. It just feels right to me that way.

There's a fellow named Butch Cornwall who frequently plays the talent show at the convention, and who always plays "A Way To Survive" with incredible chiming technique.

As tired as I am of that song, when Butch plays it, it's still very cool.

[Roger Rettig]

I hear more erroneous terminology around country music than anywhere else - last night one of the players in the band asked the singer "What chord do you sing this song in?" - and I suppose it's unimportant in the end, but it does seem to me that Basil has proved his point over and over again. He's also backed it up with documentary evidence, yet everyone's still 'chiming' away like crazy!

From my earliest days in music (1956 or so) I was aware of the term 'artificial harmonics', and that's what I've always called them. The 'artificial' part is often deleted although always implied.

I'm firmly in Basil's camp on this one, and I appreciate all his efforts in posting such interesting items for our perusal.

(I tend to use the heel of my hand - I've become quite adept at it, although I have an uncomfortable feeling that it was just laziness on my part! Maybe I'll work on the more-correct method so clearly demonstrated in this interesting thread.)

[basilh]

Roger thanks for joining my camp....Didn't know you were a camp type of person !!
I'm delighted to have you in my corner..

You mentioned about my posting...talking of posting items, what flavour next would you like posted ?

[Bill Ford]

The tight relation between overtones and harmonics in music often leads to their being used synonymously in a strictly musical context, but they are counted differently leading to some possible confusion. This chart demonstrates how they are counted:
1f 440 Hz fundamental frequency first harmonic
2f 880 Hz first overtone second harmonic
3f 1320 Hz second overtone third harmonic
4f 1760 Hz third overtone fourth harmonic

In many musical instruments, it is possible to play the upper harmonics without the fundamental note being present. In a simple case (e.g. recorder) this has the effect of making the note go up in pitch by an octave; but in more complex cases many other pitch variations are obtained. In some cases it also changes the timbre of the note. This is part of the normal method of obtaining higher notes in wind instruments, where it is called overblowing. The extended technique of playing multiphonics also produces harmonics. On string instruments it is possible to produce very pure sounding notes, called harmonics or flageolets by string players, which have an eerie quality, as well as being high in pitch. Harmonics may be used to check at a unison the tuning of strings that are not tuned to the unison. For example, lightly fingering the node found half way down the highest string of a cello produces the same pitch as lightly fingering the node 1/3 of the way down the second highest string. For the human voice see Overtone singing, which uses harmonics.

Harmonics may be either used or considered as the basis of just intonation systems. Composer Arnold Dreyblatt is able to bring out different harmonics on the single string of his modified double bass by slightly altering his unique bowing technique halfway between hitting and bowing the strings. Composer Lawrence Ball uses harmonics to generate music electronically.

The fundamental frequency is the reciprocal of the period of the periodic phenomenon.

This article contains material from the Federal Standard 1037C, which, as a work of the United States Government, is in the public domain.


Basilh...I'm with you also, Bill

Some of you may wish to check this very interesting website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic#H ... nstruments

[Roger Rettig]

Thanks for that Marmite link, Basil!!! It's now in my 'favourites' and I'll be checking it out more fully very shortly.

I might even download their screensaver in an effort to 'educate' my wife - she hates the stuff!!!!

Thanks to you, I still have quite enough for the time being! It's tough using it up when 'her indoors' refuses to pander to my ever-burgeoning waist-line by buying bread!!! While bread in the USA is, by and large, pretty disgusting, it can be made palatable with a dollop of the Brown Stuff.....

A happy 2009 to you and yours!

[basilh]

roger, Roger !! Ditto


BTW did you try the "Champagne" flavoured one ?

[Roger Rettig]

Yep! My sister sent me a jar - to be honest, I didn't detect much of a champagne flavor, but I was pleased to get it. I thought the Guiness-flavour rather good....

Now THIS is what I call topic-drift!!!

[basilh]

Now THIS is what I call topic-drift!!!

Nah ! I just thought I'd "CHIME IN" with a few NON relevant topics, (Being as it seems half the world was already doing that)
Flageolette + plural = flageolets

[John Billings]

I'm in the boat with Basilh on this one! I've never called them anything but "Harmonics" since I first learned how to play them in 1960. But,,, if someone asks me to play "Chimes," I do know what they mean. I do play them slightly differently though. I curl my little finger under, and touch the strings with the area between the knuckles. My fingers are long enough that that part of my pinky covers four strings, so I can pick/brush chords. I think you get a clearer sound than using palm harmonics. To much meat on the bone using your palm! But, sometimes, ya just gotta!
I've always considered "Chimes" to be tubular bells, such as those used in case clocks and doorbells. Oh! Wait! Doorbells???

[Paul Graupp]

Not mentioned in this thread but consider, if you will, the definition of timbre:


The characteristic quality of a sound that distinguishes one voice or musical instrument from another; it is determined by the harmonics of the sound and is distinguished from the intensity and pitch...

Synonyms: tone, tonality, resonance, intonation, overtone;



Regards, Paul

[Clyde Mattocks]

Regarding terminology, in my area, in the early days, I never heard them called anything but chimes.
Except for one oldtimer (older than me, if can believe that), who called it "charming", as in "He
could really charm one pretty." I guess you can't argue with that, it's pretty descriptive!

[David Doggett]

So to sum up the semantics:

"Harmonics" or "artificial harmonics" are the technically correct terms.

"Chimes" is a colloquialism used in the mainland US and sometimes in Hawaii, but apparently not in the UK. It apparently derives from the use of harmonics and artificial harmonics on guitar and steel to imitate the sound of mission bells or chimes in some Hawaiian songs. A colloquialism is not necessarily "wrong," it's just a colloquial synonym. The English language is far richer in synonyms than other languages. How boring Shakespeare and Keats would have been, without so may synonyms to choose from.

We're still waiting to hear directly from somebody in Hawaii. For what it's worth, back in the '60s I knew a haoli from Hawaii who used what he interchangeably called harmonics and chimes when playing the Hawaiian "Chime" songs on slack-key guitar. He also used harmonics to imitate a bugle playing Taps.

[Paul Graupp]

Good points well taken, David ! I think we can say that Harmonics are always in the tone but can be accentuated into Artificial Harmonics by damping out the overtone with a finger or palm.

In the same light; there are no chimes associated with a saxaphone but there are certainly harmonics in the tone it makes as that is how we identify it's voice.

Regards, Paul

[Bill Ford]

Harmonics are multiples of the fundamental frequency/note. This is the simplest explanation I've found yet.

Randy Beavers is as good at it as I've heard yet, also the way he does it is different from most.

Bill

[Paul Graupp]

Bill: That reminds me of an effects unit I had years ago. It had function that allowed you to enhance either the odd harmonics or the even ones. I recall that it was a definate effect either way.

The even harmonics; 1, 2, 4, 8 and 16 are all the same tone as the tonic note. Those based on 3 support the 5th or dominant tone while those based on 5, support the third tone.

There is a lot of theory based on the numeric values of the harmonics but that is math. Musical tones are composite waveforms made up of all the harmonics and fundamentals involved. While math serves us well to define a waveform, our ears are another story altogeather.

Not only are they as individual as fingerprints, our individual brains have their own distinct preferences and what one finds pleasing; another finds sickening. And therein lies this controversy. Trying to define it or lay parameters to it may only be an excercise in futility

Regards, Paul

[basilh]

Trying to define it or lay parameters to it may only be an excercise in futility

especially when there are those who doggedly refuse to accept that the descriptive terminology IS in widespread use, I equate the use of "Chimes" with the same mindset that describes "Mashing" the pedals.

Due diligence regarding playing AND its descriptive terminologies is required lest we alienate ourselves from those "Looking In' on our world.

Up and down the neck of the guitar, and the top and bottom strings may eventually be completely reversed in meaning if we don't guard our usage..
There are already those who would get confused if asked to point out the "Top" string, or move their position further "Up" the neck.. I can just picture it !!
I DO agree with Dave Doggett re the colloquialism in use in the USA, but elsewhere ? Dave says Not in the UK, he should have conceded at least Europe.

Playing Hawaiian guitar for 55 years around Europe (Mainly) I have NEVER heard the term "Chimes" used, with the exception of Country Players where it would appear to be in gay profusion (In the colourful sense).
and If I live to be one hundred, I'll never know from whence came the phraseology.. (PUN)

[David Doggett]

I equate the use of "Chimes" with the same mindset that describes "Mashing" the pedals.

Due diligence regarding playing AND its descriptive terminologies is required lest we alienate ourselves from those "Looking In' on our world...

I don't understand the "mindset" that rigidly rejects all synonyms other than the one "correct" one. I think those within and those looking in have no problem with synonyms. The Oahu lesson clearly equates the two terms as synonyms, while presenting the colloquial term in quotation marks. Many people in the American South and West prefer shorter terms, in a self-effacing attempt to avoid looking pretentious.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mash

Mash (v. trans.) - Chiefly Southern & South Midland U.S. To apply pressure to; press.

Since that is the main region for pedal steel players and manufacturers, the use of "mash" as a synonym for "press" is completely understandable and acceptable - no different than using French terms to describe cooking techniques or Italian terms in music notation.

I DO agree with Dave Doggett re the colloquialism in use in the USA, but elsewhere ? Dave says Not in the UK, he should have conceded at least Europe.

Playing Hawaiian guitar for 55 years around Europe (Mainly) I have NEVER heard the term "Chimes" used, with the exception of Country Players where it would appear to be in gay profusion (In the colourful sense).

It's hard to prove a negative, such as that the term "chimes" is never used by anyone in some geographic region. Knowing you have a long association with steel guitar in England, we'll take your word that it is never used there. Continental Europe is a big place, with a lot of languages and dialects. It seems a stretch for anyone to claim complete knowledge of all the synonyms possibly used there. But until a resident of Europe chimes in with the use of "chimes" somewhere in Europe, there's no evidence the term is used there.

...and If I live to be one hundred, I'll never know from whence came the phraseology.. (PUN)

But isn't our best and most obvious guess that it derives from the use of guitar and steel guitar harmonics to imitate mission bells or chimes in certain Hawaiian songs? This doesn't seem like a very deep mystery to me.

[basilh]

I'm sure you're correct Dave, it's just very hard for a UK English speaker to accept that "Mash" means to press, to me it equates with "Stomp" and the like, which in turn imply HEAVY pressure. (To a UK English speaker)

It's obviously the Transatlantic Syndrome rearing its ugly head again, ne'er the twain shall meet. But there is common ground for discussion..

Regarding :-

It's hard to prove a negative, such as that the term "chimes" is never used by anyone in some geographic region. Knowing you have a long association with steel guitar in England, we'll take your word that it is never used there. Continental Europe is a big place, with a lot of languages and dialects. It seems a stretch for anyone to claim complete knowledge of all the synonyms possibly used there.

Dave by implication, again in UK English, your retort: "It seems a Stretch for anyone to claim complete knowledge," is aimed at MY statement.. I only said that "I have never heard the term used in Europe," never did I intend to imply that it wasn't used, (I admitted that it WAS in use) only that it wasn't in common usage in the circles I move in. (The higher echelon of the Hawaiian Music scene)
Pretentious ? damn right it is, also true.

As for the "Hundred Years statement, it was intended as a pun, a light-hearted jocular interjection slightly of at a tangent, and to be taken in context with the "Gay Profusion" reference to the song linked in the text, to whit: "Scarlet Ribbons"

[David Doggett]

"Two countries, divided by a common language."

[Paul Graupp]

An American and an Englishman discussing a car. Windscreen said the EM, windshield said the AM and they argued until the AM said: Well afterall, who invented the car ??

The EM replied: Who invented the language ??

Regards, Paul