Is insurance necessary to put on a steel show?

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 2 May 2003 5:40 am

I'm afraid to even ask about this!
But one of the clubs where we wanted to hold a show asked if we had any and of course we don't, but it got me thinking......
Would the organization that puts on a show (and charges admission) be held liable if there was an accident or an alcohol related incident?
Or is the club's (VFW, Elks, etc.)own liability insurance sufficient?

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 2 May 2003 6:14 am

Contact Louie Hallford-from the TSGA-and he will tell you tht insurance played a big part in why beer was not permitted in the hall in Dallas. Liability would be hard to separate. If something goes wrong at a concert, the promoter AND the venue usually are held to acount. Sometimes the act too. Lets say someone has s few too many at your show and drives off and kills someone. Trust me, you and the hall will wind up in court. A good source on this would be Dick Meis-Dick@dickmeis.com-who runs the Denver show. Or I'll ask him on Sunday and reply here after.

JB

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Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 2 May 2003 9:33 am

I don't know about other states, but Ohio has laws making you liable if something goes wrong. Also if you charge admissiom it is taxable. If you have vendors selling products they must have a "Transient" vendor liscense that costs $75. Also vendors are required to collect 6 1/2 percent sales tax.Because of this and other things I quit having Steel Shows.Also everybody and his brother want to have them. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works.

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 2 May 2003 3:11 pm

On a related liability note, when the nationel Amber Alert bill passed this week
it included the Rave act which will put a lot of pressure on venue owners.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum10/HTML/002916.html

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
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[This message was edited by Janice Brooks on 02 May 2003 at 04:25 PM.]

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 2 May 2003 5:47 pm

[This message was edited by Ole Dantoft on 26 February 2004 at 09:04 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 May 2003 5:03 am

Ole..we are stil trying to figure it out too !

Imagine that..The coffee was hot..who would have thought that ?

At the very least Libaility insurance should be considered for a Steel show, quite honestly if you are renting a room or hall the libalilty insurance will most likely fall on the facility and it is worth inquiring about.

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 03 May 2003 at 08:11 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 3 May 2003 7:16 am

The reason we have these "laws" is because people in this country have the right to sue. Whether we agree with it or not, it is the law. There is an attempt by legislators to try and curb some frivolous lawsuits; such as malpratice, malfeasance and missfeasance, etc. Time alone will tell whether or not this comes to fruition.

We also are a nation of "a jury by its peers". And this is (as is should be) one of the most cherished of all our laws. As a result, ANY one can be liable for a lawsuit; that in some cases could literally wipe them out.

Knowing this in 1997 when I was asked to produce Atlanta's first Steel Guitar show, one of my first priorities was to seek out an attorney and find out what I needed to do. That proved futile. They were ONLY interested in taking my money.

So on my own I took out a 5 million dollar liability policy against as many perils as the Insurance atent said was practical.

I was a private person that could have been totally destroyed IF someone had gotten hurt for ANY reason at that show.

Fortunately, two things happened.

1. The insurance was much less than what the attorney's fees would have been.

2. No one sued.

Thank Jesus,

carl

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 3 May 2003 3:25 pm

Tony Prior,
That's comforting to hear, because I've been to the US a number of times, I've visited the ISGA twice and all I've ever met has been kind, caring and intelligent people who I've had a great time with.

Carl,
I also live in a country where I have every right to sue other people when there is a REASONABLE cause to do so ! The difference is, that I can't just contact a lawyer and say "Sue this guy for that" - there has got to be sensible reason - and it's up to a civil court to decide whether there's a case or not - and that's exactly where a silly case like the McDonalds coffee-lady-case would have been dismissed like it should have been !

Ole

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 3 May 2003 4:05 pm

Just barely off topic: I typed "ridiculous lawsuits" into Google and found that the lady (Stella Liebeck) who spilled the coffee now has an award named after her. http://www.stellaawards.com/

More good ones at Houston’s Citizens Against Lawsuit Abuse: http://www.calahouston.org/best.html
but my credulousness falters when plaintiff claims (in a drunk driving death case) that the company shouldn't have rented the car to an Irishman because.... well, you know.

Neil Lang · Post by **Neil Lang** » 3 May 2003 5:17 pm

Ole,
As GREAT as the ol' USA is, we still have alot of problems........most (but not all) have to do with the GREED of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
REAL SAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!
Neil

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 3 May 2003 7:46 pm

In this country she would have been laughed at !

In this country she WAS laughed at just as the jury and judge were laughed at and looked upon with contempt for allowing such a stupid judgement. Regardless of whether we have a right to sue or not, there has to be some reasonableness put into the system!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 May 2003 7:26 am

John Grisom gets to the heart of this suit happy culture in The King Of Torts which I just read.
For every good lawyer helping a justly injured person get on with their now less comfortable life, there are a string of money chasers putting the tongs to anyone they suspect might have a liability.

So we now must be covered, just in case....

Te Rave Act and Clean Up Act are idiotic attempts to legislate behavior by making anyone in charge of a "space" liable whether they know something is happening or not. Whether they can actually STOP something or not.

Guilty with out your advance knowlege, because you created a situation where other people did something wrong. By opening a door to your hall.
Will it stop kids from doing Extasy at RAVES... not one bit.
Will it stop RAVES... get real!
Will it stop one drunk driver...no.

But it does shift the onus of personal responsability from someone doing the wrong thing to someone else who may or may not even know about it. But is assumed to suspect it is happening. Now THAT is un-american!

Will it scare owners and promoters from doing shows... sure as hell will.
What ever happened to freedom of association and assembly.
The insurance companies will eat this up... lobbists anyone?
I don't think this will prevent the senate bar's bartender from giving one too many manhattans.

Louie Hallford · Post by **Louie Hallford** » 5 May 2003 9:29 pm

Tony, I suspect most shows/clubs have very little in the way of assets and if they got sued they would just close the doors and go fishing. The real exposure seem to rest on the promoter or the officers of the club.

As a retiree who has managed to save enough in 45 years of working to comfortably retire, I will confess that not making myself being available for reelection to the president's of a steel guitar club and promoter of a show was greatly influenced by my concerns for exposing my personal assets for the cause.

When I got quotes as high as 7k-8k just to insure the show I decided I did not have the guts or assets for it. Neither can the club afford it. Yes having a bar under the sponsorship of the club/show also raises the insurance cost.
Every hotel has a bar, no one tried to dictate anyone morals. It is just safer to let the hotel take the chances,they are after all taking all the profits.

Just one mans opinion. (whose name was on the dotted line).

Ole I envy your guys lack of exposure in this area. Unfortunately this is one of the few blights to the hard working society we live in. No better example than the coffee suit. I still get mad everytime I think about it.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 6 May 2003 12:56 am

My Goodness, Carl... 5 Million!! And you didn't tell me?

) and I thought I was your friend

I think that insurance and incorporation is a must.
I had a friend, he was president of a local Swiss resident association in South Florida. He used to hold the anual Swiss "independence-day" party at his home. A lady got drunk, slipped and broke her (already ugly) nose... her lawyer said his house was now to be hers! A broken nose => a house... YOUR house! OK? He fought it off and got to keep the house... but lost a considerable amount of money and time. Now, if you want to visit him, he's got a waiver form ready for you to sign before you even pass the door (and insurance, but he too refuses to tell for how much

).

So, incorporate (in Nevada or Florida privacy States) and get liability insurance.

... J-D.

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 6 May 2003 3:23 am

Sometimes, the facility requires insurance as part of the contract. We host a convention (not steel) at the Gatlinburg, TN convention center. We have to buy a million dollars worth of coverage for a 3 day event from a local insurance agent that also writes coverage for theater shows, Dollywood, etc. It costs about $300.00 I think for the 3 days. We also incorporated as a non-profit organization with the state for liability reasons. Unless the facility requires it before renting you the hall, you probably don't need insurance. However, you most certainly can be hauled into court if somebody has an accident.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 May 2003 6:53 am

Hi JD my good friend,

To add more 'glitter to tha gold', I even went so far as to "incorporate" also. This because I was advised on very good authority that even with all the insurance in the world, the possiblity still existed (although unlikely) that I could be hurt by a lawsuit.

It all turned out well. And the costs, while not cheap, were in line with most of the other "MUST" costs of putting on a show. Such as 4000 dollars for a sound system. Sadly most of that was wasted since the music was so horridly loud coming out of the amps, that the PA was turned completely off most of the weekend.

God bless you dear friend,

carl

Sam White R.I.P. · Post by **Sam White R.I.P.** » 6 May 2003 11:29 am

Tony No The Association does not need to have Insurance for the Steel Show.I already went through that when I first Started the R.I.S.G.A..The American Legions,Moose Lodges The Elks Lodges and all other Lodge has Liability Insurance and they are the one's serving the booze not the Steel Guitar Associations.That is what I was told by Popey Dickens from R,I,C,H. and the People that ran the American Legion Post12.Also you are suppose to be asking for a $5.00 donation at the door not a Admission.If you want talk to me at the Steel Show in Two weeks.
Past President & Founder
Sam White[This message was edited by Samuel E. White on 06 May 2003 at 12:37 PM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 6 May 2003 8:40 pm

A country-western show without beer, woosky
and dancin' girls?????

Well, count me out. I have drinks. I like to drink.

I go over board sometimes, so what?

A country show without some "juice", well,
it ain't for me. Sit all day without some
spark??, - reminds me of a Frank Sinatra
quip about people who don't drink - "so these folks wake up, and this is the best they're gonna feel the rest of the day?!?!?"

Country music, by the way, came from Appalachia, poverty, unrequitted distress,
and love of family, love of heritage, and yes, corn squeezin's.

Why do we love this traditional music so much and go back to it time and time again?

It's real simple. This music came about thru a REAL NEED......No Radios [not in the begining]....No TV.....No jalopies.....No central heating systems.....no indoor plumbing....No nothing, really......

So thru this abject misery, they still had this music.....that is about all they had.

These musicians of yesteryear were far less influenced like all of us today. Now, whether
this is good or bad is the BIG QUESTION.

They only had each other to bounce off of.
Great distances. No cassettes. No videos. Hey, not even a victrola. Steep hollers.
Broken wagon-wheel axles to get to the barnstormer.

Cows to be milked. No Ben-Gay. Wells run dried. Wheat and corn pests. Where's Dupont
and Monsanto when I could have used them?

She left me, cuz Francis made more money and lived better than us. But I did all I could
do. I did. I tried my darndest. The land,
sometimes nurishing, let us down this year.

If it doesn't rain, then there will be lotsa
pain.

But.....still got this old guitar. I talk to it;
it talks to me....keeps me level.......

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 06 May 2003 at 09:45 PM.]

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 7 May 2003 10:42 am

Louie,
I'm sorry for not responding any sooner my friend, but I've been tied up a lot at work lately.

I can certainly understand why you wouldn't put your own retirement on the line to promote a show and it's a shame that you'd have to ! I know from our pleasant after-show, before-bedtime conversations in St. Louis last year, that you've been working very hard indeed to prepare for that retirement ! Indeed one of the few blights (didn't know that one - I do now) that you have in your society.

All the best to you, my friend !

Ole

Lonnie Portwood · Post by **Lonnie Portwood** » 8 May 2003 7:30 pm

I was advised and did obtain liability Ins for the first two shows we had in Jacksonville, 1999 and 2000. 1,000,000 cost me 600 plus dollars. The Ramada was under management by a holding co. and I was'nt willing to trust their coverage. Now, my opinion is thatwe are fast becoming a society where the lower income poeple have been trained by the social engineering policies of our "government" to expect the higher income to provide goods and services so that life can be more "fair". Add to that fact the increasing "greed factor" and the ridiculous growth of "frivolous" law suits by trail attorneys who don't seem to care that they are destroying the economic stability of this great system by stifling new ventures/investments, and discouraging personal responsibility. Jury selection is a joke, since the atty's won't dare let a reasonable person sit, while searching for idiots who can be swayed easily. I could go on but you guys probably are'nt interested in my ramblings! Just letting off some steam! thanks. Lonnie

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 8 May 2003 8:34 pm

Why is a simple accident in your country always somebody else's fault ?

Because some of us refuse to take responsibility for our actions. The hikers in the sequoia park that were struck by lightning and sued the Park Rangers for not telling them not to hike in an open field during an electrical storm. My favorite was the woman who sued a pharmacy and a pharmaceuticals company because no one told her to take the suppository out of the foil packet before she....... I can't believe that she even told anybody she did it.

Louie Hallford · Post by **Louie Hallford** » 12 May 2003 8:03 am

Get ready, the next big deal is to get Macdonalds and Burger King for allowing us to eat their fast foods. The first attempted suit got squelched ,but it was back in the news last week. Attorneys love it.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 12 May 2003 8:35 am

Tony...just to summarize all the above, in the litigious environment in which we live today, no individual can afford to be without insurance for any event in which the general public is invited.

This is the advice of my lovely daughter who is a lawyer with 20 years of experience!

Gene
www.genejones.com

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 May 2003 8:57 am

Why Insurance Is Necessary, Vol. 6

In a previous life I worked for the Austin Chronicle, a newspaper that is part-owner of the SXSW (South By Southwest) Festival, arguably the largest music business festival in the world. Part of the festival is a huge number of concerts and showcases all around the city.

At one concert back in 1995 (as I recall), there was a line of attendees waiting to enter a downtown venue for the show. Across the busy street, a fight broke out between two groups of people not at all associated with the concert or the festival. A bottle was thrown, and a festival attendee waiting in line for the show got hit.

Question: who gets the lawsuit?

If you answered "the Chronicle, because 1) there's no such thing as "bad luck," "being in the wrong place," etc., and 2) SOMEBODY has to be responsible, and 3) the newspaper has the deeper pockets than the punks that actually threw the bottle, and 4) the fact that it's impossible to control ALL HUMAN BEHAVIOR EVERYWHERE is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever," give yourself a gold star. You Are Correct.

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Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 13 May 2003 7:37 am