Cabinet Drop/ Newman Tuning Chart, Etc.

Wayne Wallett · Post by **Wayne Wallett** » 11 Sep 2008 7:14 am

I have (4) steels and the one that dropped the most on the 4th string I added a bellcrank and pullrod on the 'B' pedal to pull it back up a tiny bit to be in tune. It's tunable on the hex nut for whatever amount of bump you need. It's not a solution for every situation but fixed (B) or (A+B) pedals pressed problem which covers most of the situations.
Yes! I know I will probably get flamed for this post but whatever........
Regards,
Wayne

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 11 Sep 2008 8:29 am

After all these years I still struggle with tuning. For me it's tough. So much so that I have some steels tuned "straight up", others using harmonics with a baseline note(s), and others with Newman's charts. Which of those I might use is dependant on several factors - is there a keyboardist that night, what type of music, is it a session, and even what mood I'm in. Some jobs everything seems out and then the next night in the same setting everything sounds right-on. The temperature, how hard I'm pressing the bar, and a bunch of other factors enter into it all, too. Heck, sometimes I think my steels have minds of their own and act temperamental (pun intended) just for spite. I sometimes wish my ears weren't so discerning.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Sep 2008 8:54 am

Wayne, using compensators like you describe is a common traditional solution used by many top pros. I don't see why anyone would want to flame you for that.

Mark Dunn · Post by **Mark Dunn** » 11 Sep 2008 2:24 pm

Jeff Newman told me himself; he had used his tuning chart on hundreds of pedals steels over the years and could not recall any guitar that it didn't work on. This of course assumes the guitar mechanics are operating as designed. It works for me too.

I'm amazed that people can't hear that G#'s (3rd's) need to flatted, but notice E's tuned to 442Hz as opposed to 440Hz.

In my experience band leaders want you to setup quickly and be ready for sound check. I'm sure you would be considered a 'pain' if you sit there twiddling with tuning and you'll most likely have the disco to compete with. Why make it difficult, use a tuner!

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 14 Sep 2008 12:37 pm

Brint Hannay wrote..

Stuart, Who's "Brent"? We have a Bryant and a Bent in this thread. Neither of them is me, BTW!

Sorry Brint and Bent.
I just wrote too fast and and put too many R's in Bent Romnes.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 14 Sep 2008 5:55 pm

I tune everything straight up but my thirds which I tune flat(about 436-438 on the tuner) I also tune my C#'s flat as they are the thirds in the Key of A with the pedals down. E to F I tune about 435 to 437, wherever it sounds the best as this change is used a lot with the G# and C#. Sounds weird but it works for me. It works on my Bud and my push-pull. The back neck I do the same on. I flat my E's and I flat my A's.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 14 Sep 2008 6:34 pm

Stuart Legg wrote:Brint Hannay wrote..
Stuart, Who's "Brent"? We have a Bryant and a Bent in this thread. Neither of them is me, BTW!
Sorry Brint and Bent.
I just wrote too fast and and put too many R's in Bent Romnes.

It's ok Stuart. I don't get all bent outa shape over it

$:\$

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Sep 2008 6:42 pm

Jeff Newman told me himself; he had used his tuning chart on hundreds of pedals steels over the years and could not recall any guitar that it didn't work on.

I have no doubt it would work on any guitar, and for any player. How well it might work, though, is another matter entirely. I think his chart was developed for beginning players, those who had trouble tuning. It "gets you in the ball park", so to speak.

Like Larry says, I think that how well you sound when you play is a lot more important than how you tune.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 14 Sep 2008 7:06 pm

Craig - How do you tune the F#'s on the E9 neck? Do you tune those "straight up"?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 15 Sep 2008 3:56 am

Stuart Legg wrote:He [Bo] was just being sarcastic.

Thanks Stuart; I can't always tell.

DD wrote:You guys are talking about Hz, not cents.

Hz and cents; it matters.

Bent Romnes wrote:... [Jeff Newman] tuned the 4th to 442....

That explains why I had so much trouble with the his tuning chart.

Kevin Hatton wrote:This is exactly why you have to forget numbers and learn to tune by ear....

Or use meantone.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 15 Sep 2008 4:51 am

Chas Smith wrote in 'Cents/Hz Conversion:'

There are 100 cents between A-440 and Bb-466, there are 100 cents between A-55 and Bb-58, there are 100 cents between A-1760 and Bb-1864.

To find the cents difference between 2 notes (hz) like: 440hz and 435.5hz you take log(440) - log (435.5) divided by log( 1200 root of 2)

log(440) = 2.643
log(435.5) = 2.638
the 1200th root of 2 (one cent) is 1.000578
the log of that is = .000251

2.643 - 2.638 = .004465/ .000251 = 17.79 cents

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Sep 2008 4:56 am

Donny brings up a good point (as usual)

How WELL any chart works on a guitar other than the one for which it was created is debatable.

We tend to treat these tuning offsets as ABSOLUTE -- it's in tune if they are right on, and not in tune if they stray.

Well let me tell you == THEY STRAY during the course of a performance -- a song, a set or an entire night. Tuning-wise, your guitar will not be where you started out at the beginning of the night. Will it still sound in tune? YES, if you play it right.

Good players will not play out of tune. If a note is clearly out a good player will either avoid that note / string or will find an opportune time and retune while the guitarist plays the fills (or whatever).

Perhaps it's just in our nature to obsess over these numbers and charts, but it is counterproductive. PLAYING in tune is all that matters. You can take that to the bank. If you CAN'T play in tune, you can't buy a tuner that's accurate enough for you.

Realize that there is a RANGE of 'in tune' -- somewhere around +/- 5 cents -- that's a 10 cent range. That's where our preferences kick in. Everyone's ear hears a major chord differently. Some can't STAND any beats at all. Some tolerate a few beats here and there well.

Those who can't stand to hear beats must tune JI -- similar to the Newman charts or tuning to harmonics. As we all know, the E to F will end up being almost a third of a fret flat, but that goes with the territory. You can tune it all straight up but EVERYTHING sounds a bit off to many folks.

I prefer something between JI and straight up ET. But that's my solution. Each pedal steel player must find what works for him/her.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Sep 2008 8:46 am

Well, I usually agree with Larry. But he makes some points here I will quibble with.

Larry Bell wrote:PLAYING in tune is all that matters.

It has become common on the Forum to say that it doesn’t matter how your instrument is tuned as long as you play in tune. That’s not necessarily always true for all players in all situations. If you are trying to play a triplet, and one of the notes is out of tune with the others, there is no way a bar slant is going to fix that. Even if you are only playing out-of-tune doublets, which could theoretically be fixed with some bar slant, how many players slant their bar all over the place for all the doublets they expect to play with the bar straight? I agree, very experienced and skillful players will fix a doublet by ear if they land on it and there is time to adjust. But the average player is not going to be swishing the bar around in unexpected ways to fix every doublet, if his guitar is not well in tune. And even the skillful player is going to be landing on a lot of out-of-tune doublets and then quickly adjusting them. That’s not the same as landing on chords that are consistently in tune to begin with.

I realize people are trying to prevent less experienced players from overly obsessing about tuning, but it seems like we are going too far in the other direction if we tell them to forget about tuning and meters and charts, that they should be able to play in tune no matter how their instrument is tuned. I think everyone is better off if they learn how to get their instrument tuned the way they like to hear it, whether that is JI, ET or something in-between, and whether they tune by ear, by a chart, by meter presets. The best way to learn that is to experiment and compare by tuning everything straight up, and by ear, and by the charts and presets. Watch what happens with a meter as you change from straight-up to by-ear, and compare what you get with your ear to what a chart or preset gives you. And it doesn’t hurt to read up a little on Just Intonation and Equal Temper, to understand why your ear and a meter don’t always agree. Not necessarily to know a bunch of theory, but, if nothing else, to understand that the differences between your ears and a meter are based on the physics of sound – it’s not all in your head.

Realize that there is a RANGE of 'in tune' -- somewhere around +/- 5 cents -- that's a 10 cent range. That's where our preferences kick in.

I’m not sure that really involves our preferences. To me, that’s more the range where for most people it is close enough in tune that it’s good enough (especially while playing real music), and therefore, our preferences don’t kick in. Preferences kick in when you go beyond that range and get into the 14 cent difference between JI and ET thirds. Even the in-between “tampered” notes will be +/- 7 cents or more, and so beyond the 5 cent rule. Also, the difference between tuning Es to a reference of 440 or 442 is an 8 cents difference, which is also beyond the 5 cent rule. And if your cabinet drop is more than 5 cents (1.25 Hz), it will make a noticeable difference whether you tune your Es straight up and let your As drop more than 5 cents, or tune your As straight up and let your Es rise more than 5 cents, or split the difference. So it seems to me that within +/- 5 cents, there’s not enough difference to have a preference, and our preferences kick in when you get beyond that 5 cent rule.

As we all know, the E to F will end up being almost a third of a fret flat,…

While that’s technically true, some people have mistakenly taken that to mean you have to place the bar 1/3 of the way between frets to play that A-pedal/F-lever chord. But the root of that chord is C#, which is only about 14 cents flat of straight up for a JI chart (as the 3rd of the A chord). We mostly key on the root, so you only need to place the bar slightly sharp of the fret, and mostly our ears take care of that.

Don’t mean to quibble, but, sometimes when we gloss over this stuff, it comes back to haunt us later with more confusion and misunderstanding on the part of readers and lurkers.

Chet Wilcox · Post by **Chet Wilcox** » 15 Sep 2008 9:08 am

In every song i have heard The sound is always moving ,and the ear doesnt always hear the over tones, and sometimes an out of tune note sounds good. it is always moving and nothing on earth is absolute. the weight of your hand , the weight of the bar. the weather the moon the sun and what ever else , just play it.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Sep 2008 9:13 am

David,
My point IS (whether I actually SAID it that way or not)

It doesn't matter how you tune your guitar -- AS LONG AS YOU ARE CONSONANT WITH THE OTHER MUSICIANS. IMHO, what comes out of your speaker is the bottom line. If your guitar is not in tune open it's virtually impossible to play in tune with the bar. That's Tuning 101; the graduate class is Playing In Tune.

Your preferences include your tone settings, tuning, effects, all of it. I feel that how you choose to tune your instrument is as important to your own sound as the brand of equipment or other choices you make that contribute to how you sound when you play with others.

(I assume rather than 'triplet', you intended 'triad')
A good player would avoid any string combinations that are out of tune. Some resort to tuning compensators or other means to reduce the number of these pesky combinations. Some tune in such a way as to average out some of these, realizing that perfection just ain't gonna happen. If I'm in the middle of a song and a triad sounds out of tune I'll quickly figure out which two sound right and use them until I can touch up the tuning.

I never said or meant to imply we shouldn't tune our guitars. It just shouldn't be such a chore to the point of detracting from learning the instrument. In reality, most players can tune to the Newman charts and never have a problem. Some can't hear the difference and some can -- and think it sounds fine. That's their CHOICE.

How broad that 'tunable range' is depends on the listener. Some can't even discern 100 cents -- believe me -- I've taught some. Some have excellent natural pitch and are bothered by beats.

I wasn't intending to gloss over anything -- only to emphasize that an important objective of a 'finished product' is a performance that is in tune with the other players.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 15 Sep 2008 1:29 pm

Yes Lee I tune my F#'s straight up.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Sep 2008 3:03 pm

I think we basically agree, Larry. First you get your instrument in tune, then you play it in tune. If I can get my instrument tuned to a standard pitch, and in tune with itself, I can make it play in tune with other people. If it's not tuned close enough to a standard pitch, and/or not in tune with itself, then I'm going to have trouble.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 17 Sep 2008 6:18 am

I measured the Franklin last night. It was around 8-10 cents before I found 2 loose legs!

After it is 5-6. I can definetly hear it but better

bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Sep 2008 7:06 am

Bob,
I think that's pretty normal drop for a 'modern guitar'. My Fessy is about the same. That means you'd tune Es to about A=441 to 441.5 (that's 4 to 6 cents) with the A+B pedals engaged. I believe I've heard Paul say he tunes to 442.

If you check the 6th string (assuming an UNWOUND SIXTH) and press the A pedal (or use both feet and press A and C) and check the difference it will probably be MUCH more than the 4th string with A+B pressed. The bigger the unwound string (or the CORE of a wound string) the more drop you'll see. I had a guitar that dropped almost 20 cents on the unwound 6th after pressing the C pedal. YIKES.

(I no longer own that guitar)

If you use a wound 6th, check the 5th string with the B pedal pressed. Not as much as a plain 6th but it will move further than the 4th with A+B.

FWIW

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 17 Sep 2008 7:18 am

Thanks, Larry

It was the 4th string and I will check the 6th.

thx

bob

ps: ordered the Korg programmable tuner

Larry Bell wrote:Bob,
I think that's pretty normal drop for a 'modern guitar'. My Fessy is about the same. That means you'd tune Es to about A=441 to 441.5 (that's 4 to 6 cents) with the A+B pedals engaged. I believe I've heard Paul say he tunes to 442.

If you check the 6th string (assuming an UNWOUND SIXTH) and press the A pedal (or use both feet and press A and C) and check the difference it will probably be MUCH more than the 4th string with A+B pressed. The bigger the unwound string (or the CORE of a wound string) the more drop you'll see. I had a guitar that dropped almost 20 cents on the unwound 6th after pressing the C pedal. YIKES. (I no longer own that guitar)

If you use a wound 6th, check the 5th string with the B pedal pressed. Not as much as a plain 6th but it will move further than the 4th with A+B.

FWIW

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 17 Sep 2008 7:32 pm

I have always thought we depend to much on tuners.
I tune my E's to pitch(440) with a tuner and tune the rest by ear. I've always tuned my six sring the same way.

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 17 Sep 2008 7:36 pm

I have always thought we depend to much on tuners.
I tune my E's to pitch(440) with a tuner and tune the rest by ear. I've always tuned my six sring the same way. I don't worry about cabinet drop. I think learning to compensate for it is part playing pedal steel.
I agree with Chet, just play the darn thing and quit worrying.

Mark Dunn · Post by **Mark Dunn** » 18 Sep 2008 2:06 pm

Donny, I think most players would agree with Larry. However, it's my believe that Jeff's chart wasn't developed just for the beginners. Jeff used it himself and sounded pretty in-tune to me. Yes, it's a compromise, but a very good one. I think there's a temptation amongst some steel players to want to make everything about steel playing a 'black art'.

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 19 Sep 2008 5:48 pm

Mark Dunn wrote...

Jeff Newman told me himself; he had used his tuning chart on hundreds of pedals steels over the years and could not recall any guitar that it didn't work on.
This of course assumes the guitar mechanics are operating as designed. It works for me too.
I'm amazed that people can't hear that G#'s (3rd's) need to flatted, but notice E's tuned to 442Hz as opposed to 440Hz.
In my experience band leaders want you to setup quickly and be ready for sound check. I'm sure you would be considered a 'pain' if you sit there twiddling with tuning and you'll most likely have the disco to compete with. Why make it difficult, use a tuner!

I agree with you on "use the tuner" but I don't agree with the flat 3rds and the Newman tuning.
Hope nobody gets Bent out of shape if I compare how much difference there is between the Newman tuning charts and how the PSG is being tuned by others today mainly because of the Straight Up Controversy and the fact that every PSG differs in cab drop and a preference some of us have in not dropping the 3rd until it’s flatter than a pancake which clashes with the piano and the lead guitar and the bass and every thing else on the band stand.

This is a tuning concept for the E9th that I came up with after a lot of experimenting with straight up tuning of which I could never get the chords to sound in tune.

I finally came up with this concept :

1. Tune to 441 or 442 so cab drop will not make you flat.
2. Tune in each Major chord position allowing for cabinet drop.
3. Do not tune the 3rds flat.
4. Tune the 1st of the chord, 2 cents sharp.

In the open position with the A and B pedals engaged = Amaj. Check the cab drop on the E strings. Tune to the cab drop and tune the A pedal to the cab drop and the B pedal which is the 1st 2cents above the cab drop.

In the open position with the A pedal and LKL knee lever engaged = C#maj. Check the cab drop on the B strings. Tune the LKL 2 cents below the cab drop. This will leave the A pedal which will the 1st 2 cents above.

In the open position with the LKR knee lever engaged = B6. Check the cab drop on the B strings and tune the LKR which is the 3rd 2 cents below cab drop leaving the B strings which is the 1st 2 cents above.

And ETC.. I think you get the picture

It only takes about 6min to tune this way. Hey if your in a hurry forget about the 1st being 2 cent above. It's hardly noticeable.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Sep 2008 6:37 pm

Mark Dunn wrote:Yes, it's a compromise, but a very good one. I think there's a temptation amongst some steel players to want to make everything about steel playing a 'black art'.

Of course, it's a compromise, and that compromise changes if you have a different string length, if you use different string guages, if you have a guitar with more or less "drop" than the one he used, etc.. You can't go on blind faith that a certain set of numbers will make you sound as good as possible any more than you can assume that a certain set of tuning specs will work well on any car engine. These machines are different, and we must treat them as such if we're to get the best performance out of them.

Tuning isn't a "black art", but merely a series of adjustments made so the player will sound in-tune when he plays. Some players assume others possess some "magic" that lets them accomplish tuning without charts and tuners. But when many players started, there were no tuners or charts, and they still managed to sound fine. Charts and tuners can be an aid to some players, but they're not necessary for all players.

A tuner may help you tune, but it will never help you play in tune. A lot of players assume that if the guitar is in acceptable tune, then their playing will be likewise, but such is not the case. Playing a fretless instrument requires that you develop a keen ear, and then use that keen ear constantly. I have no problem with someone using a tuner to tune, but I simply feel that the more you rely on a tuner - the less you will rely on your ears. And without a good ear, you can never be a good player.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Cabinet Drop/ Newman Tuning Chart, Etc.

Suggestion

Answer for Lee

Acceptable Cab Drop?