Do you use Chromatic Strings on your steel

[Kevin Hatton]

I take a magic marker and color code all my strings on the steel. Then I just play by color. Red, red, red, blue!!! (Betovin's 5th).

[John DeBoalt]

??? the conversation seems to be mixing chord patterns, and scale terms in the same sentences. If one is refering to a chromatic scale say in the key of C, it would be all the notes both white, and black starting from a C note on a piano to the next C note. In a major scale pattern it's always a half step from the 7th note to the root note (doe). The only chromatic note in the standard E9th tuning, is the 9th string D. All the other string notes are a natural progression of the E scale. The D natural note of course is the dominant 7th used to create tension in the resoloution from the 1 to the 4 chord. As far as chords go, any time you start building on the basic triad, you can invent all kinds of things depending on which note of the chord you decide to pick as the root note. There that clears it up for me John

[Charlie McDonald]

??? the conversation seems to be mixing chord patterns, and scale terms in the same sentences.

That's why we're talking mixolidian here.

Excuse the drift, but levity and simplicity are almost always good.
Berimbao, descendent of the African bow.
Apparently, the African musician uses his mouth in the same was as the gourd resonator.
[/i]

[David Doggett]

Okay, Dave M., I've given this some more thought. The fact that you can play an A mixolydian scale over an E9 chord does not make it a A mixolydian tuning. It's not a scale tuning, it's an open chord tuning, the E chord, modified to an E9 chord. The b7 makes that a chromatic tuning (8-string or 10-string). But the 9th string D is the only chromatic string in the tuning. Then they added a couple of E diatonic scale notes as "re-entrant" notes above the chord as strings 1 and 2. They are simply not chromatic for the E9 chord or the E scale. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you call it an E9 tuning, the D# and F# on the top two strings are diatonic, not chromatic. It is an E9 chromatic tuning, because of the D string, but that was true back when it was an 8-string tuning. Adding the D# and F# on strings 1 and 2 did not make it a chromatic tuning, and those aren’t chromatic strings.

Now, if you want to call it an A mixolydian tuning, I suppose you can. But the steel guitar tradition is to name tunings after the main open chord, except for the rare exception of a diatonic tuning, which is actually tuned to that whole scale rather than an open chord. While E9 has some notes of the A mixolydian mode, it only has 5 of the 7 notes, and it has one string (D#) outside the mode. That hardly seems to qualify it as an A mixolydian tuning. It also has 5 notes of the E ionic scale, plus one chromatic note. I haven’t bothered to look, but I bet it has a bunch of notes of other modes, and it might match some mode with no chromatics. So it seems a bit odd to me to call it an A mixolydian tuning just so you can correctly claim that one of the mislabeled chromatic strings at the top is actually chromatic to something.

If you want to conceptualize E9 as A mixolydian for the purpose of playing that mode over an E7 or E9 chord, that’s fine. Since you have most of a diatonic scale plus the 7b on the open strings, and all the diatonic notes and other chromatic notes with pedals and levers, you can also conceptualize it as other modes for playing over other chords. But to name the tuning after any of the modes, seems to be a convoluted stretch to me, the opposite of Occam’s razor.

Bottom line is, by conventional naming traditions, it is an E9 tuning. Technically it is a chromatic chord tuning (as was 8-string E9), because of the D, the b7; and that is the only string chromatic to the E9 chord or E scale. The D# and F# on strings 1 and 2 are diatonic to the E9 chord and the E scale, not chromatic. They were misnamed. And even if you consider it an A mixolydian mode chromatic tuning, only the D# is chromatic. So it is still wrong to speak of both of the top two strings as “the chromatic strings.”

Not that any of this matters. It's all semantics. But as long as we are dealing with semantics, we might as well get it excruciatingly correct. I’m just sayin’.


[Corrected to say "A mixolydian," instead of "B mixolydian," a mistake mentioned by b0b below]

[b0b]

It's 5 notes of the E mixolydian scale:

E F# G# A B C# D

plus the D# from the E ionian. I don't see a close resemblance to B mixolydian, David, as there is no A note in the tuning.

[ed packard]

Dave M wins the chord naming contest…congrats!

One of the points re the structure(s) is that any string may be used as the root, and adjacent strings will form a rational chord.

Starting with the C ledger line on the treble staff, the lines spell out CM13.

Starting with the D space on the treble staff, the spaces spell out Dm13.

Dave found CM13 and Cm13 starting on the same string.Move the Cm13 up two frets and we have Dm13 (also down 2 frets and over one string).This will allow the line note chords (CM7, Em7, G7,  Bm7b5) and the space note chords (Dm7, FM7, Am7,  CM7) just two frets apart.

Note that the adjacent line notes are chords, and that the adjacent space notes are also chords...makes for nice scale harmonization moves.

If you would care for a chart showing the above integrated into an E9/B6 universal, complete with a chord location chart, just send me an email request.

DD...there are other tunings NOT named for the "Root" note = Alkire, and Leavitt(sp?).

[Brint Hannay]

Like I said before, tune that 2nd string to D--Straight E9th, problem solved!

I'm just funnin'! But the original topic was about using "chromatic" strings, rather than the terminology. And I do in fact tune the 2nd to D, and it suits me great for playing reasons. (Worked for Jimmie Crawford, too.) (N.B.: I can't play anything like Jimmie Crawford!) I play both the D# and D notes often, and about equally often. So I like being able to get both without any chance of inaccuracy of hitting a feel stop. Holding RKR seems easy to me, so I raise the 2nd to D# there, along with the C# lower on string 9 (again, as Crawford did).

The 2nd string C# lower I use only occasionally, but by putting it on the left knee (together with string 7 -> G) I can still have it and do a smooth bend between D# and C# when I want to.

[John Bechtel]

Please make the pain stop!

[b0b]

I used D as the second string for 15 years. The damage to my playing was immeasurable.

[Brint Hannay]

b0b, what was this "damage"? That's a bit strong, don't you think? So you found you could do what you wanted better with the D#. Different tunings enable different things. Vive la difference!

[b0b]

b0b, what was this "damage"?

I'm not entirely sure. That's why it can't be measured.

[David Doggett]

Oops, I meant A mixolydian, meaning key of A, mixolydian mode. The mixolydian mode has its root on the 5th of the key signature ionian scale. I mistakenly took the 5th of the key of E, but we are talking about the key of A. The full descriptive name of the mode scale we are discussing is: key of A, E mixolydian mode (as I learned in this old thread about Malaguena and Phrygian mode: click here). When we ambiguously say "E mixolydian" or "A mixolydian," one can either take that as identifying the key or the root. I prefer to be told the key, because I would already know I am playing over an E9 chord, with E as its root. I need to know what key or ionian scale I am taking the notes from.

But, frankly, it's way easier for me to just play an E7 or E9 chord. That 7th is the only difference between the E scale and A scale. So it is easier for me to just play a b7 in the key of E, or for an E chord, than to switch to the A scale and think of the mixolydian mode. Which is another reason we are all going to continue to think of this as an E9 neck with a couple of diatonic out-of-order strings, rather than key of A, E mixolydian mode with chromatic and diatonic re-entrant strings.

[b0b]

The A mixolydian scale is:

A B C# D E F# G

I don't see the connection to the topic, David.

[Dave Mudgett]

Okay, Dave M., I've given this some more thought. The fact that you can play an A mixolydian scale over an E9 chord does not make it a A mixolydian tuning.

Where did I say that E9 tuning was A Mixolydian tuning? Say what? Any nomenclature I've seen interprets the tuning as a chord, not a scale. I said it's E9 chromatic: E9 with a note, the 2nd string D#, that's chromatic to the diatonic scale that E9 is formed from, E Mixolydian.

When we ambiguously say "E mixolydian" or "A mixolydian," ...

There's nothing ambiguous about the idea of the E Mixolydian scale. It means this specific scale - see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixolydian_mode

E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E

or, in terms of intervals, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 1 (Octave)

... one can either take that as identifying the key or the root. I prefer to be told the key, because I would already know I am playing over an E9 chord, with E as its root. I need to know what key or ionian scale I am taking the notes from.

If you absolutely insist that you need to know which key you're taking the Ionian scale notes out of to get an E9 chord, that is A Ionian, which has the same notes as E Mixolydian. That would absolutely drive me nuts - do you really want to have to transpose to A in your head every time you select the notes for an E9 chord or some other extended dominant E chord? I'd rather just know the pattern of Mixolydian intervals.

As far as key signatures go - the name E9 is simply a chord - a sequence of notes and how it's being used relative to some key signature. It says nothing specific about what key signature is being used. An E9 chord can be played equally as well in the key of C as in the key of E, for example. Further, as Ed's examples amply illustrate, tunings have a different interpretation for each note in the tuning.

I simply said that E9 chromatic is a reasonable interpretation of the tuning (low-to-high)

B, D, E, F#, G#, B, E, G#, D#, F#

but emphatically not the only one.

On the original post - most of us, including me, did in fact answer his questions - we ALL knew what he meant by "chromatic strings". But we wound up here because - as occurs on practically any discussion of those top two E9 strings - people started chiming in about how incorrect it is to use that terminology. If this discussion stops that kind of topic drift, I think it will have been worth the trouble. I completely agree that it doesn't matter - so if y'all also agree, can we simply agree to stop worrying whether it's correct or not? That way, people who want to call them chromatic strings can, those that don't want to won't, and we can get back to the real important issues - like trying to divine the mysteries of why justly intonated, black Emmons push-pulls through Peavey amps playing 4/4 country shuffles in a Texas dance hall are inherently superior to all other forms of music - aka "JUNK" - that non-steel-playing heathens like to play and listen to.

Uh.. that's a joke, I hope it's obvious. But I'm following the Johnny Carson adage to be sure to diagram jokes clearly when in doubt.

[Charlie McDonald]

I'm not entirely sure. That's why it can't be measured.

It's DSD: dominant seventh disorder.
Hard to cure. Requires modern music applied to it.

I can't justify a whole string for an oft-avoided passing tone.

OK, John, I'll stop. I'm trying to stop. I am.
If only the others would....

[b0b]

I can't justify a whole string for an oft-avoided passing tone.

I can't justify my whole tuning. That's why I need compensation.

[Danny Bates]

b0b, Ed and the Daves...
Mensa testing day is coming up next month. Shouldn't you guys be studying?
What am I saying? You guys are probably all members already.
http://www.us.mensa.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

Dave said:

we can get back to the real important issues - like trying to divine the mysteries of why justly intonated, black Emmons push-pulls through Peavey amps playing 4/4 country shuffles in a Texas dance hall are inherently superior to all other forms of music - aka "JUNK" - that non-steel-playing heathens like to play and listen to.

Uh.. that's a joke, I hope it's obvious. But I'm following the Johnny Carson adage to be sure to diagram jokes clearly when in doubt.

Dave, can you start a new thread on this? Charlie (Thelonius) and I have nothing to do for the next year. Thank you

[Brint Hannay]

Personally, I think "wild strings" should have stuck.

[Danny Bates]

Brint,
They called them "wild strings" until Jimi played the song at Monterey Pop in '67... remember the distorted speakers? That did it for the steelers.

Jimi sang...
"Wild Strings.. You make my steel sing,
You make everything... groovy"

[ed packard]

Hey Danny B...or should it be "Oh Danny B"?...The Hendrix "Wild Strings" thing infected the steel player named Joe Wright!

The two Daves need someone to gang up on...lets see if I can become the target:

Let's see...we have scales that we call "diatonic", and sales that we call "chromatic". Both can begin and end on the same note. The diatonic has 8 notes. The diatonic has both "major" and "minor" scales. The chromatic IS both. The diatonic notes going up (ascending)the minor scale are given in terms of sharps, and when going down (descending) in terms of flats.

Problem #1...If the scale root is Ab, then the b3 interval going up is C...going down it is then Cb? That is good, because I would not want to get it confused with the Germanic/Nordic key of B, which is really Bb Yank/Brit etc, which makes an H of a problem.

So much for the diatonic minor "rubber" note and associated semantics.

Alright...the eight tone diatonic scale gets some color/colour by the addition of some chromatic notes which take over and make the 12 note scale containing the 8 diatonic scale notes a chromatic scale.

Problem #2...Does this mean that the diatonic scale notes are also chromatic notes?

Sort of A Priori reasoning here...the string vibrations for a C string give C,C,G,C,E,G,Bb/B,C,D,E,F,G,A, for their 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 first 13 harmonics. These are the notes of the diatonic major scale. The "color/colour adding chromatic notes" are from the upper harmonics...therefore, diatonic major has first claim re titular preeminence...nes pa?

Now I would have it known that I "am one of those" that do NOT consider the F#,G#,D#, or even C# in the chord root of E as chromatic, except in the sense (not "Cents") that the diatonics wish to relinquish their claim of priority via physics (that sounds a bit like Hankey Pankey to me).

What say you noble bards? Think of the trouble Adam had naming the animals.

[Brint Hannay]

Brint,
They called them "wild strings" until Jimi played the song at Monterey Pop in '67... remember the distorted speakers? That did it for the steelers.

Jimi sang...
"Wild Strings.. You make my steel sing,
You make everything... groovy"

Maybe if he had burned a banjo...

[Charlie McDonald]

nothing to do for the next year

[icon of smiley yawning]
I'm thinking of making an electric berimbao.
It will have a chromatic string.
Possibly diatonic, if I use a bar for a rock.

[ed packard]

You have heard the lectures and the debates…time for a pop quiz of the true and false type:

No notes in a diatonic scale are chromatic.
No notes in a chromatic scale are diatonic.
All notes in a diatonic scale are chromatic.
Some notes in a chromatic scale are diatonic.
You don’t really care.

[Danny Bates]

Ed, Accordian to Da Eclyclable Brittiania's..

"Diatonic: in music, any stepwise arrangement of the seven “natural” pitches (scale degrees) forming an octave without altering the established pattern of a key or mode—in particular, the major and natural minor scales. Some scales, including pentatonic and whole-tone scales, are not diatonic because they do not include the seven degrees."

So my answers to your questions are...
No notes in a diatonic scale are chromatic. True
No notes in a chromatic scale are diatonic. True
All notes in a diatonic scale are chromatic. False
Some notes in a chromatic scale are diatonic. True
You don’t really care. True

Charlie (Thelonius Mac) said:

I'm thinking of making an electric berimbao. It will have a chromatic string.

Charlie, Make sure it's black. They say black Berimbao's sound the best... but that's a new thread

Brint said:

Maybe if he had burned a banjo...

Brint, Hendrix was almost an accordian player. Luckily, he liked Pepsi more than Coke back in 1953. Watch the video evidence below.

BTW, I think an accordian would have burned way better than a guitar or a banjo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6JntNIPHc

[David Doggett]

The A mixolydian scale is:

A B C# D E F# G

I don't see the connection to the topic, David.

"A mixolydian" can mean either:
1. Key of A, but using the 5th tone (E) as the root to form a mixolydian mode scale
2. A scale with root A using the mixolydian mode intervals

The mode scale we are discussing is #1

Likewise, "E mixolydian" can mean either:
1. Key of E, but using the 5th tone (B) as the root to form a mixolydian mode scale
2. A scale with root E using the mixolydian mode intervals

The mode scale we are discussing is #2

So both #1 in the first example, and #2 in the second example describe the same mode scale and root.

Seems ambiguous to me.

I said it's E9 chromatic: E9 with a note, the 2nd string D#, that's chromatic to the diatonic scale that E9 is formed from, E Mixolydian.

While technically correct, that just seems contorted and strained to me compared to "E9 with diatonic tones 9 and Maj7 on strings 1 and 2."

do you really want to have to transpose to A in your head every time you select the notes for an E9 chord or some other extended dominant E chord? I'd rather just know the pattern of Mixolydian intervals.

I thought that was the point of using modes of one key to play over chords of another key. I already know the chord notes and root for E7 or E9, and can hit those easy enough at any E position. I don't need to know any modes for that. But if I want to rif over that with a simple diatonic scale other than the E scale (which doesn't work because of the chromatic b7), what scale would that be? It would be the A (ionian) scale. Since the root is E, I would be playing the mixolydian mode with root E (the 5th) from the key and scale of A. On sax or keyboard, I would temporarily switch from the scale of the key signature to the A scale (3 sharps). And on steel I would go to an A position and play A (ionic) diatonic scale notes over the E7 or E9 chord. I don't have to memorize the different intervals of any modes except the ionic. And on E9 pedal steel, which is mostly an ionic diatonic tuning, you don't even have to know the ionic scale, you can hit any string except that pesky chromatic 9th string (which doesn't even exist on my uni), and use the A, B and C pedals.

So, by knowing which new key to go to, you can play any mode without knowing the complicated intervals of all the different modes. I'm no whiz at using modes, but I never saw any use for them at all until I understood this.

For example, to play Malaguena with the E chord as the tonal center, you don't think of the key of E and the E scale with a bunch of chromatic accidentals, you think of the key of C and the diatonic notes of the C scale. But the root is on the 3rd tone of the C scale (E). That makes it phrygian mode. But you don't have to know the intervals of phrygian mode, you just use C scale notes and you automatically get the intervals right.

Likewise, to play blues/jazz with a D root. You don't think in terms of the key of D plus accidentals for the 3b and 7b. Instead you think of the notes of the key of C and the white notes of the C scale. But your root is on the 2nd tone of the C scale (D). And you are playing the Dorian mode of the key of C. But you don't have to know the intervals of that mode. You just use C scale notes and you automatically get the intervals right.

There are other ways to use modes. But the most useful piece of information about them for me is that if you choose the right key signature and ionic scale, you can automatically play any mode without knowing the intervals for any mode except the standard ionic or major scale.