Can your sound ever be to clean?

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 13 Aug 2008 4:00 am

I used a preamp the other day and boy was it clean. I thought maybe to clean so I plugged back into my N400 which I like a lot. Couldn't take it, went right back to the preamp. The string separation was great with the clean pre.

My feeling all along has been that you can shade or color your clean sound to your liking, but you can never dial out the mud of a muddy sound to be clean enough without extreme adjustments that then you don't like.

This week end I might try a quality power amp with a pre. Oh I can see the money flying out of my hands as I write this. Oh Patti dear...

Larry Behm

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 13 Aug 2008 6:48 am

Larry,

It's interesting that you are contrasting "clean" with "muddy". To me, clean means undistorted and clear is the opposite of muddy. I think you have hit the nail on the head though. Getting rid of muddiness is a really good thing. Something I learned a while ago is that speed in the preamp (and power amp) is very important to delivering a clear, responsive sound. By speed, I mean the fast reaction of the circuit to transients. A slow circuit can sound "veiled" or even muddy. Many think that tube circuits are very fast when compared to some transistor circuits. Early transistor designs were horrible sounding as were early IC designs, as were early digital circuits. However, as engineers got to know how to deal with solid state and digital, vast improvements were made.

The extreme adjustments you mention for dialing out muddiness can cause other problems like phase shift and ringing at higher frequencies. And these adjustment do nothing to improve speed.

Be careful when trying high grade power amps with your preamp. Some are very clear sounding and some are not. I think it has to do with the amount of protection a power amp manufacturer designs in the output section. These amps must be able to deal with whatever any user hangs on the output terminals.

Good luck and enjoy the clarity!

TC

Mitch Druckman · Post by **Mitch Druckman** » 13 Aug 2008 7:03 am

Larry, what pre was it that you liked so much?

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 13 Aug 2008 1:22 pm

To answer the post question, in a word, yes it can (for me!)

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 13 Aug 2008 2:07 pm

Clean but warm and percussive is what I prefer. I like to hear the pick attack on the strings but not at the point where you get the ice pick in the ear effect.

The above is not a technical explanation for sure but I think you you get the jist of what I am saying. My 2cents

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 13 Aug 2008 2:34 pm

Well, good question. It depends on what you want to get tone wise. I just finished 3 days of tracking in L.A. for a album. The producer and artist did not want a clean "country" type steel sound, so I ended up tracking through a 1964 Vibroverb with a JBL in it. We turned the amp up so it would break up. Crazy, you might say?
Not if it's what the artist and producer wants. I also tracked some through a Divided By 13 FTR37 driving a 4-12" cab in parallel with my signal going into a Blackface Princton. Warm, fat, slight breakup. I can't wait to hear the final mixes.
Dave

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 13 Aug 2008 2:42 pm

Dave, I used to use my 64 Vibroverb on stage all the time. Everything was miked, so I didn't have to drive it too hard. Wonderful sound. I stopped takin' it out after a sleazy-lookin' guy sidled up to the stage and asked me, "Is that a REAL 64 Vibroverb?"

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 13 Aug 2008 2:52 pm

Yeah, those Vibroverbs are worth serious dough now. The one I used was rented from Cohen rentals in L.A. I drove it pretty hard so it would break up. Everyone loved the tone.
Dave

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 13 Aug 2008 3:09 pm

I don't like it too clean most of the time. I like a bit of an edge. Personal tastes vary. Even my own preference varies over time.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Aug 2008 5:39 pm

Yes, solid-state amps are too clean for me. I like a little tube warmth and grit, even for country and jazz. And for blues and rock I want some real crunch and breakup.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 13 Aug 2008 5:41 pm

Len that is what I was thinking also.

B0B you have always been hard to nail down.

Mitch I am trying several units.

To me it is like watching HDTV vs others. DVD vs VHS, etc. Once you have heard it, it is hard to go back, something like that PP sound I have in my head, I do not think I will ever own anything but a PP.

Larry Behm

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 13 Aug 2008 6:28 pm

Larry:
If you could get a Crown power amp I feel sure you will like the tone. The Crown doesn't color the
sound of the pre amp like Peavey or QSC.
At one time I was using a Mesa pre amp, Crown Macro
1200 power amp and 2 Peavey Nashville 112 cabs. that were loaded with 12" BW speakers. Nice rig but it
took a truck to haul it around.
I have gone back to 1 combo amp . Rack system's are
fun to play with though.

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 13 Aug 2008 8:46 pm

Larry, did you try plugging your preamp into the "power amp in" of your Nashville 400?

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 14 Aug 2008 3:44 am

Dean yes I do as I do not have a separate power amp yet.

Dean was your dad Ray Parks of the Bluegrass group "Vern and Ray"?

Larry Behm

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Aug 2008 7:09 am

I had an old Crown power amp once, one of the early solid state amps, and it was the most boring amp I'd ever heard. Really clean - and really dull! I suppose it was delivering a flat response. It's funny, but until then I thought I wanted a power amp that didn't color the sound at all. Using that Crown helped me realize that the power amp is like the soundpost of a violin - it's a part of the instrument. If it doesn't compliment the sound that passes through it, it becomes the weakest link of the tone chain.

Every part of the electronic system is important in generating the final tone. We think of the guitar as "the instrument" but in reality our instruments extend all the way to the speakers.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 14 Aug 2008 8:27 am

I tend to like the sound of an amp with the power tubes being driven, even if there is no apparent 'distortion'. To me it sounds 'fat', but then again, my 'fat' might be somebody else's 'muddy'.

I don't if it's because they are 'too clean', but there aren't any transitor preamps that I'm crazy about. To my ears they range from clinical to bland. Although once I played through an older Peavey hybrid combo (transistor pre, tube power amp) that sounded pretty sweet when you turned it passed 5 (here me playing the amp: Peavey Mace??).

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 14 Aug 2008 9:13 am

I went to do a session. As many engineers have no idea how a steel should sound, I usually take a few cds. I played Lloyd's "Little Darlin'" stuff for him, and said, "See. Clean." He looked at me and said, "JB, that's NOT clean." He was right. There was clarity, but also tube warmth. I'm just used to my buddies, who are high-gain 6-stringers, sounds. Their idea of clean is,,,, filthy!

Richard Marko · Post by **Richard Marko** » 14 Aug 2008 10:20 am

Does all of this knowledge / trial and error go the way side when 9 times out of 10 you either line out or mic your amp through the mixer/PA system when playing live ???
Mixer EQ , all of those power amps,
system compressors, different speaker sizes, horns and cabinets ?? !!
Come on - really - think about it.
Your still at the mercy of the sound guy
(if you have one), if you don't then your really up the creek by some clown adjusting the mix that is in the band !!!
There are the ones that adjust the mix via the floor monitor also !!! AAHHHH

All this comes down to is finding your comfort zone and if your happy with the amp output behind you -
then great, this is the best you can do.

I'm surprised nobody didn't think or say of this other than me.
HMMM did I look too far down the road from the amp output ??

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 Aug 2008 10:43 am

Richard, you are right. That is why many of us don't like to use a line out, but would rather mike our amp speaker before going to the board. For that, it doesn't matter that the PA system is delivering a flat response. In fact, with a miked amp, a flat-response hi-fi PA is the best way to deliver the tone of your amp and speaker. Also, some amps simulate a guitar speaker in the line out. And there are direct boxes that simulate amp and guitar-speaker tone. So, with the right equipment, it is not necessary to loose all your tone with a line out.

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 14 Aug 2008 10:43 am

Larry-

No Vern & Ray connection that I know of!

-dean-

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 14 Aug 2008 10:52 am

It would be interesting to take a poll of our top 5 favorite steel recordings of all time. I'd bet that most or all of them would prove to have been less than pristine clean, and maybe all of them would have been thru tube amps.

I find that all transistor, pristine clean, tends to feel cold and sterile and boring compared to tones that have just a little grit and harmonic enhancement (aka - distortion) in the sound. Tones that come to mind are those of Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, Tom Brumley, and Jerry Byrd to name just a few. Pretty much any classic tunes by these guys was thru tube amps with a bit of natural dirt in the tone. Sure some of these guys also used clean transistor amps in later years, but the real classics that turned many of us on to the beautiful sound of steel guitar came thru less than perfectly clean tube amps.

So short answer, yes, a sound can definitely be TOO clean.

Brad

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Aug 2008 11:12 am

I never use a line out to the PA because it doesn't get the sound of my speaker. I'll mike the amp and then if the tone is bad out front, it's the sound man's fault, not mine.

I'd have no idea how to set my controls if I couldn't hear my speaker directly. Monitor speakers just aren't reliable for dialing in the tone.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 14 Aug 2008 11:39 am

Brad I might use the BB for that tube sound and a pre and a more expensive power amp with a fast response.

Larry Behm

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 14 Aug 2008 11:57 am

Richard Marko wrote:Does all of this knowledge / trial and error go the way side when 9 times out of 10 you either line out or mic your amp through the mixer/PA system when playing live ???

I've never once used a line out when playing live in 30+ years of playing. In terms of somebody miking an amp and making it sound bad, that's definitely a hazard of working with a sound guy, but I know for a fact that if it sounds good coming out of the amp, you have a shot at sounding good in the house. If it doesn't sound good coming out of the amp, there's nothing that the sound guy can do to make it better.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 14 Aug 2008 12:00 pm

Brad Sarno wrote:
I find that all transistor, pristine clean, tends to feel cold and sterile and boring compared to tones that have just a little grit and harmonic enhancement (aka - distortion) in the sound.

Brad, I have been told that a Fender tube amp running 'clean' has somewhere around 3-5% THD (total harmonic distortion). Does that sound right to you?

The Steel Guitar Forum

Can your sound ever be to clean?

Can your sound ever be to clean?

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