Steel Players In Recession..??? How Did Affect You?

[Gene Jones]

There is hope, I filled up last night @ $3.59 gallon. The oil and gas speculators on Wall Street are apparently getting nervous about the possibility of increasing domestic production.

The producers of Oil & Gas do not cause high prices, the Market does. If the US Congress was realistic and vote to end the insane prohibition of domestic production resulting in reduction of imports from other countries, gasoline would likely fall below $3.00 a gallon by the end of 2008, and heating oil accordingly!

[Stephan Franck]

Gene,

With all due respect, your reasoning is not based in reality.

Whether one thinks that lifting the offshore drilling ban etc... is a good thing or a bad thing, the fact is that the oil won't flow for another 10 years, because that's how long it takes to develop those fields.

So that will do nothing to ease the market in the near future. What you would need is excess capacity now, and we don't have it. Even the saudis don't have it (their potential excess capacity is less than 10%).

As for "speculators", the problem with that word is that it's one of those boogeyman words that means everything and nothing. Either you believe that market forces work themselves out, or you don't.

What you call "speculation" is only possible because of the deregulation of the commodities market. so the question you really need to ask yourself is who deregulated those markets and when.

[Gene Jones]

Gene,

With all due respect, your reasoning is not based in reality.

"Whether one thinks that lifting the offshore drilling ban etc... is a good thing or a bad thing, the fact is that the oil won't flow for another 10 years, because that's how long it takes to develop those fields".

......Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if your guess of 10 years is correct, if congress had lifted the ban imposed the last time we were in an oil crisis, the oil would be flowing now!....

"So that will do nothing to ease the market in the near future. What you would need is excess capacity now, and we don't have it. Even the saudis don't have it (their potential excess capacity is less than 10%)".

......and if drilling will not solve the need for excess capacity, what will? Not drilling?.....

"As for "speculators", the problem with that word is that it's one of those boogeyman words that means everything and nothing. Either you believe that market forces work themselves out, or you don't".

......I do believe that the market works itself out. That's why that just the threat of increasing domestic availability lowers the anticipation of excess profits in futures investing. The expectations of future availability will influence investments and subsequently current prices, which is why retail prices will be lower long before the "oil is flowing"....

"What you call "speculation" is only possible because of the deregulation of the commodities market. so the question you really need to ask yourself is who deregulated those markets and when".

......current influence on the Market by speculation is a reality. That's why those who have investments watch the daily rise and fall of the DOW and other indicators to keep track of their portfolios. I fail to see the relativity of who and when it was deregulated......

.....................................................

Stephan, I appreciate your comments and the fact that we have different viewpoints. That's what makes the USA such a great place.

Gene

[b0b]

Maybe we could get back on topic: How has this recession affected steel players?

[Brad Malone]

Guys, here are the definitions of "recession" and "depression.

Recession: when the guy across the street loses his job.

Depression: When you lose your job.

[Robert Harper]

Well guys, apparently GM and Ford and the country hasn't learned any thing from the last 30 years of oil shockes. To tie this to steel as Bob request, I have learned a little about the steel in 30 years

[pdl20]

Its getting to the point i can't afford to even oil my steel anymore .

[Billy Carr]

Playing jobs for steel players have been slim in south Mississippi for a long time. The higher fuel costs certainly didn't help any. I spent 30+ years playing clubs on weekends and sometimes 5 and 6 nights a week. Stricter DUI enforcement, as well as, clubs cutting band money has been the big problem around here. Add to that the higher gas costs and it makes a slim situation even slimmer. I learned a long time ago that in the music business, for me anyway, it was always better to just ride the merrygoround, so to speak, when it stopped just find another one to get on and move along. But when the last gig played out, I had, had enough and decided to just play steel shows and enjoy playing what I wanted to. The economy doesn't look promising at the moment but it'll come around. I'm a small dealer/seller and that's where I find the most enjoyment out of the steel business. I like to help players get new/used guitars that are affordable. Seeing a happy customer/friend/player is worth more to me than any 100.00 I might pick up in a club for a night. I look at the fuel I'm saving by not having to travel weekends to a club somewhere! Whenever I'm given lemons, why not make lemonade. I'm thankful for the many, many friends I've made over the years through the music business and continue to make. It'll take more than high gas prices and a troubled economy for me to throw in the towel.

[Tony Prior]

Let me make this clear, I had a few spirited responses above to this thread. My responses were not directed at any one person or individual, but rather to the issues they discussed in the topic. I have many friends in service businesses, trades, corporate etc...my responses were "vanilla" with regard to there current experiences, which are all different.

I think it is wise that as we read posts, not everyone see's things in the same light, so we respond differently. It is not meant to imply one person is wrong or right but rather others have a different take on things, especially in reponse to something posted.

If any of us are going to come right and say
X or Y is the case and state it as fact, you can be sure there will be a few out here that may not see it that way and offer an alternative opinion.

No different than the threads asking which strings are best or, SHOULD WE PLAY MELODY ?

At the end of the day this is just an electronic hangout for folks with a common interest to have some fun.

tp

[Jan Mulder]

What are you complaining, we pay $9,65 a gallon in the Netherlands!

Jan

[Gene Jones]

It'll take more than high gas prices and a troubled economy for me to throw in the towel.

Amen, Billy. As someone once said: "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead"!

[Brian Henry]

Jan, I was in Europe last week making inquiries. My teaching salary in Europe would be exactly double what it it is here - then I would have no problem paying $9.95 a gallon. I would have no complaints either. You can't just compare expenses, you must also look at incomes. Regards,

[Eric West]

If this is your first Recession, and you live through it, you'll be smart to remember the things that got you through it. Playing gigs you hoped you'd never have to, for less money than you ever have, develop other skills, and look for ways to live that cost less.

People will try to get you to "vote for them" by telling you that they are going to take money from people that have more of it than you do.

It's bunk.

They will, of course, but it will be money that you would otherwise get by working for their companies.

Good luck.



EJL

[James Collett]

As someone once said: "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead"!

US Rear Admiral David G. Farragut- 1864, I believe during the takeover of New Orleans.

[Damir Besic]

I have to postpone the order for my SD-10 Promat because of this situation, also have heard that guys in Nashville don`t take many gigs out of town because of the gas prices.Bands are cutting down to 3-4 piece and they don`t hire any steel, fiddle, banjo, keyboard or other "luxury" instruments, they stay pretty much with a lead/vocal,bass and drums...

as far as the question "who is driving the oil prices up".. I`m pretty sure it is nobody else but good old domestic oil cartels like Exon Mobile ,Shell and others...gallon of gas in Iraq is $ .25, same in Venezuela, in US is almost $4 , and oil companies file record profits, billions of dollars every quater...???


same scenario in Croatia, INA is the major oil company and they lease land where they drill the oil from govorment for few pennies and then they sell it back to us for almost a $10 per gallon..and Croatia even has enough oil for their needs but...??? corporations/goverment/mafia is in power and thats the whole story...

Db

[Steve Feldman]

What are you complaining, we pay $9,65 a gallon in the Netherlands!

Jan

Yes - I'm and I'm sure it's ridiculous. I just came back from being in Switzerland for ~3 months where they pay about the same for gas. The difference is, as I'm sure you know, that their culture is not car-centric. 1) I commuted almost daily by bicycle, and there is a general acceptance among the population that bicycles are a bona fide form of adult transportation (which, of course, is most certainly the case in the Netherlands). They are accepted on the roads. 2) The Swiss have this most amazing system of trains and buses that will take you anywhere, typically with departures within ~1 minute of scheduled time. Just amazing. 3) They never really developed the kind of 'gas-guzzling' mindset that has become the norm over here. Most cars get 'reasonable' gas mileage. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about the cost of gas. It's not so central to their culture. 4) General cost of living, and indeed salaries, are higher over there (at least in Suisse).

But, boy, the way things are here now, and the way things are likely to be going, it is getting tough...

[Brad Malone]

Seems to me one has to set limits. Get a vehicle that gets 25 miles to the gallon and do not accept gigs that are over 50 miles round trip. That would limit your gas cost to $8...you can decide from that point if the gig is worth taking. Playing bars and clubs, for the most part, is a poor way of making money.

[Ron !]

My teaching salary in Europe would be exactly double what it it is here - then I would have no problem paying $9.95 a gallon.

TB....you will not say that if you knew that the dutch people pay road taxes, higher insurance.They pay road taxes depending on the weight of the car.Karen and I drive a Cadillac STS and we don't have to pay road taxes in PA.If I would import that car into The Netherlands I surely would have to pay 300 Euro every three months for that car.That is 480bucks every three months.Plus 9.65 a gallon for gas will make you change your mind.Not to speak about their insurance.We pay 96 bucks for 2 cars.That is approx 60Euro.Those cars over there would cost me at least 300 a month.
Cost of living over there is double from ours.We go to WalMart and buy a couple steaks for 10bucks.Those steaks cost you 30 euro over there.Thats 45 dollars.

Now TB.....tell me again.....would you trade?

Ron

[Steve Feldman]

My teaching salary in Europe would be exactly double what it it is here - then I would have no problem paying $9.95 a gallon.

[snip]
Now TB.....tell me again.....would you trade?

Ron

Not to get too far off track here, but I have been offered a job in Suisse and am now trying to figure it all out myself. It's very good on many levels, exceedingly expensive though. Very tough decision right now....

Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[CrowBear Schmitt]

if i had to choose havin' a job in Switzerland or in the USA
i'd choose Switzerland hands down

as many know, yes we do pay double on gas compared to the US, but salaries are double & cost of living is double
we also have health & social benefits that are not to be overlooked
i'll agree that we don't have the gaz guzzlin juke box syndrome, but there are a lot of over 2 tons suvs here
as well as a lot of bicycles & lanes for them

i played 1000 kms from my crib a couple of week ends ago
my expenses were 600 € = 950 $ & 200 € = 320 $ for the gig
that's 800 € = 1270 $ that were paid up front before i put the gear in the short

[Damir Besic]

Guys, here are the definitions of "recession" and "depression.

Recession: when the guy across the street loses his job.

Depression: When you lose your job.

this is funny...

Db

[Brian Henry]

Steve, I am very tempted in view of what Crowbear has added. The schools I visited were crime free and the average class size was 18 - 20 pupils per class. The public schools there are cleaner, much safer and academically focused. Sounds like a perfect place to raise a family. Compare this with our overcrowded(30 students per class), crime ridden schools.

[Steve Feldman]

Steve, I am very tempted in view of what Crowbear has added. The schools I visited were crime free and the average class size was 18 - 20 pupils per class. The public schools there are cleaner, much safer and academically focused. Sounds like a perfect place to raise a family. Compare this with our overcrowded(30 students per class), crime ridden schools.

CB and TB -

You guys are preaching to the choir. In many ways, feel like a changed man after living over there ~3 months. All the good things you all have mentioned, without a doubt....

The salary is definately higher - no doubt - but it sure as heck isn't DOUBLE! And it barely just covers the higher COL. That's why I'm 'on the bubble'. Anyway, from what I've seen, no pedal steel gigs going on in Lausanne, so that would mean hopping on a train to go somewhere (Bern, Zurich, etc.).

I do appreciate y'alls input, though. Right now, I lay awake at night trying to think this all through and I wake up looking like this:

[Brian Henry]

Steve, I am unsure of your career field. However, I have checked the teaching field throughly, and in most countries in Europe my teaching salary would be double what I get here.

[Damir Besic]

Steve, you can always come home if you don`t like it, but if you don`t try it and later you are sorry it will be too late, you can come back if you don`t like it but you can`t return time later if you don`t try it now....

I don`t know about other professions but when I was there I only played on weekends, mostly Austria ,Slovenia and Germany and lived in Croatia.Croatia is only about 2-3 hours from Austria and about 9-10 hours from Munchen and about 3-4 hours from Italy, depends which part are you going to. I played in the band with the guy from New Zeland who lived in Austria. I remember my sister always being jelaous because I made living playing music, and that was only on weekends, I made more money playing steel than many people working, doing what I loved to do and spent my week days at the local lake drinking capuchino and checking out girls, I was not by no means rich but I always had enough and no stress what so ever. Health insurance was never an issue because everyone has it. I spoke to friend of mine who plays at the local hotels in Dalmatia and he said I should have enough work in case I decide to come back, and health insurance is still the same , you go to the health department and they issue you a health card, that`s all you need, if you work or not, everyone has the same.I guess you could call it Socialized Health Care, which I had since I was born and as a kid I remember going to doctors any time I was sick and never had any problems. I tough that was a normal thing on the whole world, that everyone has a healt benefits. There was even no co-pays for anyting.Schools are also free, every year at the beggining of the school year you go to the book store and get all the books you need, free. College is free also, but you need to have a good grades to get in, one of the best universities hundredes of years old are in Zagreb, I just heard that the teacher failed the whole anathomy class test at one of the colleges in Zagreb..schools are very serious and hard, studying is a must. You can`t even be a truck driver without a 4 year highschool degree from traffic high school...it is a different world overe there.I never really cared about the price of gas, I used a public transportation on daily basis since I was in elementary school.There is trains and buses everywhere, going almost everywhere.Living in Zagreb and playing the gig in Trieste, Italy, was like living in Nashville and playing in Paducah,KY.I remember one time years ago me and friend of mine picked up banjo and guitar, set on the bus and went to Munich to play at the main square, price of ticket $50, price of beer $.50 and having fun picking live, Blue Moon Of Kentucky for local Munich radio station, priceless..

Db

Db