Do you have trouble reaching a vertical lever?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Jul 2008 7:24 pm

For those of you that are tall, this thread may be a waist of time. But for those of us like I just sold my Emmons LeGrande to, and myself, that has always been a bear.

I am not only short (5" 7"), but my leg bone from knee to foot is even shorter abnormally. This means that even with 1" shorter legs and pedal rods, I cannot engage MOST verticals.

So they have to be extended lower on any PSG I play.

But I never met anyone who needed them as low as the person who purchased my guitar. In that purchase, the buyer bought a whole slew of Emmons' LeGrande parts from me. And one of those was 2 new vertical levers.

He asked me if I would put it on there before I shipped it to him. Then he told me of his dilemma. He needed that lever so low that, he could not close the lid. So he had to back off the stop screw each time before putting the guitar in the case and vice versa.

So he came up with an idea and asked if I could modify the lever so it would swing a full 180 degrees to eliminate the problem. I said sure.

However, I did not like the fact that the stop screw still had to be so high, that it coud damage the case lid.

Then I was led by Jesus to do something different. And the following is what happened.

Look at the picture below.

Notice how low the vertical is.

Now look at the next picture and notice my daughter's thumb is pressing down very hard against the lever.

What is holding it up? Well look at the next picture.

I removed the normal Emmons crossrod "end" bracket and installed a home made bracket, with a couple of stops. One is just like the stop Emmons uses on their RK levers. But the other one is a "return" stop that is adjustable. I drilled the hole off center for the mounting screw. That makes it an eccentric. In this way, the buyer has a way to adjust the return stop just a tad beyond the travel needed.

Also note the pivoting bolt. I pressed the locking pin out and replaced it with a 3/4" 10-32 cap screw and lock nut. In addition, I had to grind a slight radius on the silver part of the knee lever to allow the paddle to swing. But there was still a problem.

The lever would not swing far enough. So the problem repeated itself, only on the other side of the swing. So I shaved off a little bit of the upper right hand corner of the lever, and ground a slight radius on it. to allow the KL to do what the buyer wanted.

Now, Bobby Boggs (the buyer) can adjust his knee lever ANY way he wishes, and without fear of it causing a problem. Or having to resort to adjusting the stop up or down every time he takes it in, or out of the case.

Indicidently the lok nut on the pivoting screw can be adjusted for tightness of the paddle. It worked so well, I drove the pins out of all the other levers and replaced them with cap screws and lok nuts. Since these levers are notorious for becoming loose as a goose over time. (See other pictures) He now can set them just tight enough that the knee lever paddle will fold easily, but not fall down of themselves.

So what does he do with the normal Emmons' stop? Well he can leave it there; and then if he ever sells the guitar where the buyer is of normal height, he can remove the homemade bracket, install the one I removed, and it's like the day it was built once again.

May Jesus richly bless Bobby and bring him many hours of joy over his new toy,

c.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 15 Jul 2008 10:03 pm

Looks pretty cool, Carl. What's the piece of string for in the second picture?
And Bobby's taller than 5'7", ain't he?
I'm 6'5", and I have trouble with some verticals. I wonder sometimes if they're not mounted like that, just so the cases WILL close?

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 15 Jul 2008 10:46 pm

I just put some Velcro on the lever, and on a 3/8 square strip of plywood. it looks a little funky, but it solved the problem.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 15 Jul 2008 10:58 pm

I'm wondering if this might be a specific Emmons problem.

I'm 5'11'', and I could never get comfortable with the vertical lever on the Legrande II I used to own - it was nearly impossible to use. But not so on other steels I've owned, including a seventies Sho-Bud and a Swedish-built AVM (which was just perfect, vertical lever-wise). My present Zum fits me fine and has a wide range of adjustment, which the Emmons did not.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 16 Jul 2008 6:57 am

Carl,
You really need to get next to a Fulawka guitar.
Ed's vertical levers have a double hinge in them so you can fold them flat when putting the guitar in the case and you can set the lever at any height you want when playing.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 16 Jul 2008 7:36 am

I wonder if Per is correct. I'm 6'4" and my leg bone from foot to knee is pretty long. But by the time I raise my Legrande enough so that I can get my legs comfortably under the guitar, the vertical is pretty high. My other guitars are fine.

In general, I find the vertical needs to be in just the right spot to be fully useful.

Carl - it's great to see you posting on the forum again. You are a wealth of good information.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Jul 2008 7:51 am

What's the piece of string for in the second picture?

Ah that!

Well here's da stowree.

It's not a string it is a rubber band.

Bobby bought all the parts I listed for sale with the guitar. Among the parts was 5 knee lever kits and 1 Pedal kit. However, these kits were missing their pull rods. Bobby wanted 3 of the kits installed and the 9th pedal installed.

So after installing these items, I put the E-clips, spacers and nylon tuners for each kit in a ziplok bag and used a rubber band to afix them temporarily to the two bellcranks that were installed on each of the 4 crossrods.

You see, ALL of the above was the result of something that happened just before I was ready to ship the guitar after Bobby purchased it on the forum.

The guitar had sat UN touched for 10yrs. I knew (and said so in the sell write up) that it would need to be oiled. But when I turned it over to remove the legs and pedal rods, I saw how badly the old oil and grease had congealed. Further examination showed that over 50% of the changer fingers were sluggish and some would not return at all without extra pressure from me pushing on them.

There is NO way I could send that guitar to ANY one in that condition. It broke my heart to call Bobby and tell him the sad saga. So I agreed to gut the entire guitar, remove the changers, disassemble them, clean them and then lube them correctly.

So while that was going on, Bobby asked if I would install the 9th pedal, and 3 of the 5 levers. Which I was happy to do. After all, he was going to have to wait. And nobody likes to wait after they have bought something.

"All's well that ends well!"

Albeit, a 3 week delay before shipping. But I feel much better now knowing that the buyer was not faced with having to remove all the crud that came out of those changers. What in heaven's name did Emmons use to lube those fingers? Whatever it was, it ended up freezing most of the changer fingers. That WON'T happen again.

The guitar shines like a mirror now. Which is the way it SHOULD have been BEFORE I listed it for sale. That WON'T happen again either!

My sincerest apologies to Bobby. And I am thankful Bobby was most kind about it. So looking back on it, maybe it was a blessing it happened. Because now, EVERY thing was cleaned and lubed and checked out from top to bottom.

That Emmons polish is the best stuff I have EVER used. If you want to make your PSG's gleam, order some of their aluminum polish. It is incredibly good. I would not kid you.

Praise Jesus!

c.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Jul 2008 9:29 am

You really need to get next to a Fulawka guitar.

Thank you Erv.

I intend to do just that. I am getting ready to publish the book I am writing on the Pedal Steel Guitar, and in the first 100 copies' "edition" I have not included all the PSG's I wanted to.

Ed' Fulawkwa is one of them. So when I pick up my new Excel PSG in Stlouis this year, I intend to spend some time with Ed. I have never met the gentlman; nor have I ANY knowledge of his guitar.

IF, and when, I come out with a second "edition" (totally depends on sales of the first 100 copies), I will include the Fulakwa PSG and others too, that I am not aquainted with.

Thanks for posting that friend.

Carl - it's great to see you posting on the forum again. You are a wealth of good information.

Thank you Dave. That is most kind

c.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 16 Jul 2008 9:42 am

Carl,
Ed just celebrated his 80th birthday.
I have a couple of his guitars, one is a D-10 and the other is an S-8 non-pedal model.

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 16 Jul 2008 10:25 am

The Williams guitar also has a double hinge on the vertical that lets it fold completely flat. Neat idea. Good to see you on here again, my friend!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Jul 2008 11:44 am

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Jul 2008 12:18 pm

I wonder if Per is correct. I'm 6'4" and my leg bone from foot to knee is pretty long. But by the time I raise my Legrande enough so that I can get my legs comfortably under the guitar, the vertical is pretty high. My other guitars are fine.

In general, I find the vertical needs to be in just the right spot to be fully useful.

Indeed Dave.

Look at the following pictures; which I posted some years ago on the forum. I made a vertical lever that solved most of the problems:

The problems are:

1. Too low or two high

2. Since most of them pivot from the left or right end, the amount of pressure needed to engage it, various depending upon where your knee contacts the lever. This can be bad, IF you use the vertical WITH LKL(s) and LKR. Incidently, I believe Emmons' vertical paddles are simply too short.

This vertical pictured, pivots from front to back, instead of left and right. This means that NO matter where your knee contacts it, the same amount of pressure is required to engage it.

Plus, it is long enough that it can comfortably be engaged with any of the other three (LKL back, LKL front and LKR) knee levers. I made the paddle out of oak, and then bevelled it so it would be comfortable to engage, then polished it to a high sheen using Polyurethene finish.

Finally, there is an adjustment that allows you to change the height of the lever to suit, without changing the tuning of the lever.

c.

Don Sulesky · Post by **Don Sulesky** » 16 Jul 2008 12:41 pm

I also have very short legs from knee to foot.
What I did to solve my problem was to shape out a block of wood 2 inches thick and cut a groove in it so I can slide it over the end of the vertical knee lever.
When not in use in the case it just slides right off and laid in the case.
Don

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 17 Jul 2008 5:35 pm

Here's a Willy in the "packed up" mode:

Here it is in "set up" mode:

Note how this get's the vertical closer to the rear apron, so it hits the meaty part of your leg rather than the knee cap part. You don't have to come up as high to engage it, plus it can be adjusted closer to your leg without interfering with the top of the case when it's packed up. Great idea!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 17 Jul 2008 6:00 pm

Thanks, Carl - that looks like it would fix my problem. I also agree that some paddles are too short to use it with other levers, which I sometimes find useful. This catches it all.

Roger - I agree that putting that vertical near the rear apron is a good idea. For me, that goes for other levers as well - I sometimes find it difficult to work levers that are too far in.

I find ergonomics critical for this instrument. Every person's body is different, and require different accomodations.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 25 Jul 2008 3:13 pm

Carl -

Might be a day late and a dollar short posting this but here goes:

Must agree with Dave with regards putting the vertical knee lever close to the back apron - but with a difference. My teacher has a JCH and his LKV has been replaced with ANOTHER LKL but to the back and outside of the normal LKL. I've done it to my GFI and it works very well. Takes some getting used to 'cause you have to move your knee backwards to access the lever but the pain and aggravation factors are reduced considerably. If you operate the normal LKL close to your kneecap then the movement is minimal. Can't tell from your photos whether this is a viable option for you but it is something to be considered.

Oh - I'm 5'8" so I know the hassle very well.

Respectfully,

Richard

Jeff Garden · Post by **Jeff Garden** » 25 Jul 2008 4:49 pm

Thanks for an interesting thread, Carl. I'm 6 feet tall and thought I was the only one having a tough time reaching the verticals on a Legrande III.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 25 Jul 2008 6:50 pm

Carl-Good to see you posting again with all your valuable information. Thanks.
Your vertical that you made with wood, is a good idea as a REAL pushup so it can be used with either LR or LL with the same pressure. I like a vertical but it has always been a hassle. I solved it by not using the case. I just take it in the Van ready to play. No assembly needed in a dark club and no tearing down. Way to go. If I remember, I head that BE had done that too....al.

:)

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 25 Jul 2008 8:24 pm

The vertical on my Nash LTD folds back to eliminate this problem. Carl, love your writings and your mechanical ideals.

May GOD bless you.

Tony

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Jul 2008 8:26 pm

You're welcome Richard, Jeff, Al and Tony.

I need to explain something about the knee lever that is shown in the 3 pics above. It is set to a perfect height for me. So that is no problem. However there WAS a problem on it at first in another aspect.

And that was there was NO way to easily fold the 2nd LKL. You can see this clearly if you study the last picture. Also, with the knee lever set as high as it is, ya can't close the case!

I solved that by replacing the original metal ball joint connectors (that connect the knee lever to the crossrod crank that has a ball screwed into it) with snap on-and-off ball joints, made out of delrin.

(Note: Because of the tight space, it was not easy to unlatch a regular ball joint connector like is used on pedal rods.) In addition there is too much play in those, and they were noisy when engaging them. Using delrin snap balljoints, once they are snapped in place, there is zero play. And they are very quiet.

Note the following picture.

Also note that the pivot mechanism is nothing but a door hinge. I drove the original pin out of it, reamed it out for a 1/4" bolt. Then I used a nylon knurled thumb srew to keep the bolt finger tight. By reaming it out, it makes the pivot velvety smooth, yet there is NO side to side play in it.

So now, to close the lid, I simply unsnap either the top OR the bottom ball joint connector (takes a second), unscrew the knurled thumb screw from the 1/4" pin, pull the pin out and the entire vertical ass'y lifts out.

With this out of the way, the LKL2 folds easily as does LKR and LKL1. The entire operation takes less than 10 seconds. Putting it back, you just reverse the procedure.

It works like a charm. Lid closes without any problem of course with the vertical lever out of there.

By doing it this way, I can set the height (by adjusting either or both ball joints on the short 10-32 threaded connector rod. But once the knee lever is set to the desired height, it does not have to be adjusted again.

And as you mentioned, the lever goes straight up and down. Because of this, it is easily availabe at all times to be used with LKR, LKL1 and LKL2. Which I use often. Also, since it extends beyond all 3, there is no chance of pinching the knee, which is not uncommon on many factory installed knee levers. Or the inability to reach the vertical lever, IF, you are engaging one of the other knee levers at the same time. Which is also NOT uncommon on a lot of vertical levers.

Finally, not having it pivot from side to side (rather it pivots from front to back), makes it easy to acclimate mentally for "feel". IE, the exact same amount of knee pressure is used regardless of where the knee makes contact with the wooden paddle. Which by the way has a shape that is quite comfortable. Being highly polished adds to the comfort.

Thanks again to all of you who have posted.

c.