ZB Nightmares

Steve Broatch · Post by **Steve Broatch** » 4 Jul 2008 3:02 pm

Hi all,

I was playing away the other night on my ZB Custom when suddenly my C pedal went limp and no longer bent strings 4 and 5. Got down on my knees and had a look. The whole cross bracket that holds the cables on the pedal end had come completely loose. The cables had popped out of the bracket and had popped out of place at the changer end too.

It couldn't have happened in a worse place. Getting access to the C pedal mechanics is a nightmare on this guitar. My dad and I spent about 6 hours trying to fix it today. Getting one end of a cable in place only to have another bit pop out etc. Just getting your hands into the right places is difficult enough. It's all so cluttered and tight down there. Absolute nightmare!!!

In the end we kinda got it fixed. One of the cables was mysteriously too short - even when lengthening it to its full extent. How it fit in the first place I'll never know. So we had to slot it in the front part of the changer end bracket (ZB owners might know what I mean). Probably not correct and the pedal now sits higher than it used to when not in use but at least it works correctly and the action is smoother than its ever been!!

Anyway there is no real point to this post. Just thought I'd share with you some of my misery. If it weren't for the great sound of this thing - and it is great, I would have chucked it out the window by now.

I'm certainly learning a lot about the workings of a pedal steel but I think I'll buy a new 'sensible' steel next time.

Anyone else care to share their ZB nightmares.

Steve

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 4 Jul 2008 3:27 pm

Steve,I feel your pain. My first steel was a ZB D10. I spent more time on my back trying to adjust it than I did practicing! I sold it for a GFI, and now own a Carter, I never have to do anything except minor tweaks. ZB's are not for everyone, definitely not me. Now a new Kevin Hatton one- that would be cool. JP

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 Jul 2008 4:49 pm

Steve, welcome to the club. Playing a ZB is like owning a 58 Jaguar. You don't know if the wipers are going to come on when you make a left hand turn. I will say that once a ZB is PROPERLY set up they pretty much stay that way for good. We all have our ZB nightmare stories which to me makes them fun. Oh, but that sound! This is the reason for the new modern mechanics that we put into the new Retro Custom ZB replicas. www.retrosteelguitar.com
Same sound, just hassle free precision modern mechanics underneath. The top half in our changer is just the same as the old. The bottom half is modern.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 4 Jul 2008 6:37 pm

I'm enjoying my new ZB retro that Hatton and Fessenden built for me.

Steve Broatch · Post by **Steve Broatch** » 5 Jul 2008 12:54 am

Thanks guys. Glad I'm not the only one. Kevin if I lived in the U.S and I had an SD-10 I'd be straight on to you.

I've got no excuse - I knew all about the 'unique' mechanics of ZBs before I bought it and I still went ahead and got it.

Don't get me wrong, I love it. My other steel has pretty much been collecting dust for the last few months. I'm just pleased I got it fixed and I can get back to playing.

tom anderson · Post by **tom anderson** » 5 Jul 2008 1:32 pm

It's hard to give advice on how to set up your pedal with your description. Why don't you take some pictures & post them of what you have done.
The C pedal should have the "tree" as close to the center of the guitar as possible. (I am assuming this is a D-10). Also, the tree's can either be with the holes for the pull rods towards the changer, or away from it-kindof depends on the original length of the rods- but probably they should be towards the changer. You want the two pulls to balance out and bottom out at the same time when you step on the pedal. You will have several choices on the tree to hook the rods into & will have a couple of choices on the changer finger. Just keep experimenting until the rods hook up right. Your pedal rod has three holes on the center post to screw into. My guitar uses the center hole on the C pedal. Also, look at the two rods. If one is slightly longer than the other, look at the 4th or the 5th string. You have two raises on the 5th & maybe two on the 4th. Which hole in the changer finger is open on these strings? Use the longest or shortest to fit to the correct hole. The fact that the pedal is now higher says that you may need to get under there & adjust it again. Finally, make sure that the pull rods are between the tree & the pedal rod & facing up as you look down at the guitar while it is flipped over. Once the tree is tightened down they will not come out.
Kevin or Greg Jones are far better at adjusting these than me, so they can feel free to correct any misinformation I might be giving you.
But!! This is what makes working on these guitars fun- Once I set up for a practice for a gig & had the same thing happen- I flipped it over & put everything back with the handy allen wrench that adjusts everything & the singer looked over & just sort of shook his head.
Good luck

Duncan Hodge · Post by **Duncan Hodge** » 5 Jul 2008 6:14 pm

Sorry to hear that your ZB decompensated. You're right, you should most definitely get a new "sensible" steel. The best solution, and of course the most sensible coure of action, woult be to send your ZB to Duncan Hodge in DeLand, FL. This will assist in the healing process after your recent trauma.
Oh yes, back to the point at hand, the only "ZB Nightmare" I can really relate is the way my back and knees used to scream when I would try and lift my old blue D-10 ZB. You know, though, I wish I still had that blue D-10 and could go through that agony again.
All the best in resolving your problem...Duncan

James Collett · Post by **James Collett** » 5 Jul 2008 9:18 pm

I'm confused- wouldn't tuning one of the rods cause the "tree" to rotate, putting the other pull out of tune? Or are ZB's not even tuned via rod length. COuld someone enlighten me on a ZB changer? Sorry to get off topic, I just hate when I don't understand something so intriguing!

Thank'ya very much,

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 5 Jul 2008 9:55 pm

Here's a diagram of the Kline changer (courtesy of Winnie Winstons web site).

It is very similar in principle to the ZB changer.

The fingers bottom out on the endplate of the guitar

James Collett · Post by **James Collett** » 5 Jul 2008 10:03 pm

Duh! Well that explains it. Stupid me...
Thanks Richard- I've been wondering why no manufacturers had come out with a similar system, and now I was beaten to the idea by 45 years!

Steve Broatch · Post by **Steve Broatch** » 6 Jul 2008 1:11 am

Duncan - I'll swap yer for that lovely SD-10 you have.

Tom - Thanks for the advice - much appreciated. You're right there are several choices on the "tree", I just used the outer ones for both raises (4+5) just cos looking at the A + B pedal trees they're setup like that on my guitar. I also used the hole nearest the pedals on the changer finger (furthest away from changer end itself) for string 5 which is a shorter pull. It's the only string on my guitar that uses this 'front' hole.

Although the pedal is sitting higher than it was, it's actually slack in this position. If you put a little weight on it it falls back into its original position without actually engaging - if you know what I mean.

Just looking at it again now. I can see what the problem is. The cable for string 4 is slightly too long and needs adjusting to take up the slack. But the nut on that cable is so tight it won't budge. I'll sift through the toolbox again. Once I get that done I think it'll be good as new.

The pedal action itelf is excellent. For a mechanical dunce like me I'm quite pleased with myself.

Paul Frank Bloomfield · Post by **Paul Frank Bloomfield** » 6 Jul 2008 1:42 am

Hallo Steve
Glad to see you have sorted your problem out, we all
had to start somewhere so in the deep end seems about
right, you can't go wrong with Richard Burton, he is
quite good mechanically.Don't be taken in by my good
friend Duncan Hodge, send it to me I'm nearer so less
postage !!
All the best
Frank. Corfu

Steve Broatch · Post by **Steve Broatch** » 6 Jul 2008 3:26 am

Hi Frank,

How's it going.

Yeah Richard got me out of the last problem I had. He's a top man.

This is about the fourth major-ish problem I've had in the three or four months I've had the guitar so hopefully there won't be too many more. I'll have completely rebuilt it before long!

Billy Knowles · Post by **Billy Knowles** » 6 Jul 2008 4:53 am

Richard
Please give me the exact wording for winnie's site. I can't find it.
Thanks
BIlly

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 6 Jul 2008 4:58 am

http://julianwinston.com

Steve Broatch · Post by **Steve Broatch** » 9 Jul 2008 1:11 pm

Well folks I've finally had it with my ZB. Check out the for sale section.

After spending hours at the weekend fixing the C cables back up I tried to make the 'final' re-adjustment to one of the cables tonight to make it shorter while it was in situ and out they both popped again - Groundhog Day

.

Once they're out they're too short to hook back in again. When I lengthen them and manage to hook them back in, they're too long for the slack to be taken up. Tightening them in situ is impossible because of the lack of the room to work in, in the undercarriage area. So I'm stuck.

I doubt it will sell (UK only) especially in the current economic climate but it's worth a try.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 9 Jul 2008 1:45 pm

Steve,
Perhaps Richard might be willing to try and fix it for you? Seems like a real shame to part with a ZB. There's got to be somebody in the UK who could get it back to working order.

Mike

Jonathan Shacklock · Post by **Jonathan Shacklock** » 9 Jul 2008 1:55 pm

What do you guys think, would I be mad to take this off Steve's hands? Have to admit I'm tempted...got to love that ZB tone...

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 9 Jul 2008 6:34 pm

I feel your pain Steve. Truth be told to fix that problem you really have to disassemble the mechanics underneath and start from "0". I have never seen a ZB that was really properly set up unless it went through a ZB mechanic's shop. They have to be properly set up one pull at a time starting with the A pedal. The good news is that once they are properly set up and stabilized they stay that way (if they are lubed). Steve, you have got the classic ZB curse 'em and leave 'em syndrome. This is exactly what led me to redesign the guitar with Jerry Fessenden for new modern quick change bell crank precision mechanics. It was exactly what was missing from the ZB. Don't feel alone. I've cursed 'em myself.

Paul Frank Bloomfield · Post by **Paul Frank Bloomfield** » 9 Jul 2008 8:35 pm

Steve
Don't be a plonker !
Sit down and try to reason it out,I'm sure that
Richard Burton will be more than happy to assist you
getting it sorted.
You won't beat a ZB tone and sound.
I'll phone you when we get back to the UK today.
All the best
Frank. Corfu

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 9 Jul 2008 9:20 pm

Steve,
You may be able to get the rods back on as follows:

Remove strings 4 and 5.

Wind out the raise tuning screws for 4 and 5 (at the endplate. This will allow you to push the fingers much further forward than you can at the moment.

Approximate the length of the pull-rods (you call them cables) and tighten the locknuts.

Insert the motorbike spoke ends of the pull-rods into fingers 4 and 5.

Pull the fingers forward, and connect the other ends of the rods to the string-tree.

Put the raise tuning screws back on, re-string, and tune up.

Try the C pedal to see if you got the length of the rods right.

If not, you will now have a reference as to the length of the rods, and can start over again, remove them and re-adjust them.

It's a lengthy process, but worth it for THAT TONE, surely?

Joel Meredith · Post by **Joel Meredith** » 10 Jul 2008 11:01 am

Man, I know ZB's are touchy, but I wouldn't ever sell my ZB S10. The tone is amazing on it. Sure I need to do some touch-up's on it here and there, but overall it's a very reliable guitar.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 10 Jul 2008 11:32 am

I totally restored this guitar around 1980, and played it off and on until about '92, with no mechanical problems. If they are set up and adjusted right, they are as good as any other older steel. They are not easy to change setups on, but play and sound great when they are set up properly.

BTW, has any one seen another ZB S12? This is the only one I ever saw or heard of. I bought it from a former ZB employee, who built it while he was working there.

Bob Hamilton · Post by **Bob Hamilton** » 10 Jul 2008 12:00 pm

Hey Steve, I'll bet if you post some detailed pics of the problem with the guitar we could walk you through the repair. There's a lot of ZB guys here on the Forum, and we've all had an issue here or there. Are you re-wiring or otherwise securing the rods back in to the yoke? Once they are back in place, they shouldn't pop out.

Darvin, you posted my latest ZB. This old S12 still plays and sounds great. I recently traded in to #1060 from Forumite Steve Hamill, and set her up as an S12U. I'll post some pics this weekend if I get time. Who was the ZB employee you got her from?

Steve Broatch · Post by **Steve Broatch** » 10 Jul 2008 12:17 pm

Thanks for the advice guys. I appreciate it.

You've talked me out of selling it (for now anyway).

I spent another couple of hours tonight trying to follow Richard's advice. Some good tips there that I hadn't considered such as winding out the end plate tuning screws. Certainly made things easier.

My main problem seems to be one of the pull rods is still too long to take up the slack. I've tightened the locknut as much as I can but it's still way too long which sounds stupid I know cos it mus have fit before.

Anyway I'm going away for a few days at the weekend so I've put it back in it's case and will have another look at this rod and try again on my return. I'm all ZB'd out for now.