Emmons PP. Don't shoot me down in flames.

Barry Gaskell · Post by **Barry Gaskell** » 15 Jun 2008 6:17 am

Hi guys
I've recently refurbed an Emmons fatback S10. I think I've managed to adjust all the pulls so they all function well with the minimum of travel, which with the PP, is generally more than the modern all pull. The tone is superb. As as has been said before, it's a unique sound compared to the all pull system.
I've learned a lot about the mechanics and how it functions. Its stability is superb, stopping as it does on the body at rest and in action. Fine.
The very nature of the PP system is the predominance of the sharpening over the flattening.
My question is :- Is there any machanical device that will allow you to split the tuning, as all modern, pro,(except Carter) steels have. If it could be done and maintain the integrity of a PP, think of all the old PPs that would be revitalised and actually used on stage. Yes.... I know loads of people are going to come back to me saying they use theirs on stage and if it's good enough for blah blah blah etc etc. Well I'm afraid Blah Blah Blah uses a modern all pull over the PP, and uses the split system extensively, even though they have built their careers on PPs and have done videos with them. To some extent now they are used for promo or photo shoots or admired at home. I don't think even the BCT or the Zum hybrid system can produce the tones of a PP. And yes I'll get the Blah Blah can make any guitar sound good etc etc.
The end plate adjustable, split tuning system was really a quantum leap forward in steel mechanics. I'm not knocking the all pull system, it works superbly and sounds as no other system can but wouldn't it be nice if someone could come up with a way of splitting the tuning on an Emmons PP while maintaining that incredibley unique tone.
Maybe the all pull has developed to the extent that, with any number of pick-ups available and amplifiers and EQ available and given the excessive travel with a PP, it's not a valid proposition to do it or even bother with it. Maybe a retrograde step.
It's strange though that modern makers try to utilise the PP body contact system and claim it's as good as a PP. The holy grail sound seems to be an Emmons PP with an all pull efficient system. There must be something in it.
My apologies for rambling, but working on my Emmons and installing an up lever to flatten 5 and 10 got me thinking about it.
Maybe the physical dynamics of the system simply wont allow it.
OK nurse, I'll get back back into bed. ! !
Qu'est-que tu pense ?
Barry

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 15 Jun 2008 11:31 am

Barry writes>>The holy grail sound seems to be an Emmons PP with an all pull efficient system<<

If only the record buying public did not have "cardboard ears", we would be selling more recordings made on Emmons PP's. It pains me to see these "so called rap artists" hauling home the gold....noise really sells...now back to my "PUFF POP" CD's...LOL

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Jun 2008 11:59 am

do you really think that the record buying public has a clue what kind of steel guitar is on the records they buy??????

they don't even know WHETHER the records have a steel guitar on them.

sheeeeesh

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 15 Jun 2008 12:29 pm

I'm with Barry G, if someone could devise a reliable system of splits for the push-pull Emmons, I'd consider one. But between its mechanical challenges, and the lack of splits, I'm sticking with modern all pulls.

I also happen to think most modern all pull brands have a more "neutral" sound, so they can fit into more styles of music. Not every rock, pop, jazz or acoustic artist wants the amount of twang inherent in most Emmons PP's, ZB's, Sho-Buds and others.

I feel Paul Franklin's being Nashville's top session player is testament to this approach and fact of life.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Jun 2008 2:35 pm

There are way more recordings done with old Emmons PP guitars and sho buds than you guys seem to think. This is the case even in Nashville. There is nothing inherently "twangy" about them.
I'm not sure about the splits issue. I have played PP's with splits but I'm not sure how they were set up.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 15 Jun 2008 2:59 pm

I asked Bobbe Seymour if it was possible to have tunable splits on a PP and he said it could be one.

I hope he chimes in here and elaborates in this.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 15 Jun 2008 3:25 pm

Hey Barry,
I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure you can do splits on a Carter by adding a pull rod to tune the split. Here's a page on the Carter site that explians how to do this: http://www.steelguitar.com/askbud/askbud31.htm
I think on any all-pull guitar splits can be tuned with pull rods to do what the split-tuning screws in the changer housing of guitars like Zums do. I think you could probably tap split tuning screws into the housing if you prefer tuning them with a screw instead of a pull rod. I have some splits I tune with pull rods on my EMCI and it works fine.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 15 Jun 2008 3:44 pm

Several years ago, I think it was Mike Cass, who posted some pictures on this very Forum of a PP Emmons, which if my memory serves me well, either had belonged to Buddy Emmons or was to go to him, and it had a third row of tuner screws which allowed for a true split tuning.

Maybe it can still be found in the archives?

... J-D.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 15 Jun 2008 6:36 pm

JD,
I think this is the site you're thinking of...

http://www.buddyemmons.com/64ish.htm

Here's a pic from that site...

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 15 Jun 2008 6:37 pm

I have done many split tunings on all guitars, especially the Emmons P-P. NOTHING is impossible, and I find all these "problems" to have simple cures.
I just installed a "Cross Over" set-up on one of my cable Bigsbys, so installing another "Split" tuner assy on a P-P is child's play. Several ways to do it, my favorite most guys don't like because it involves a permanet mod to the body, but there are other ways that work WELL!.

Hey Mike, I "chimed in!"

Los Robertous

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 15 Jun 2008 6:39 pm

Actually, this three row hole thing on the end plate that Danny has posted, didn't really work too well. I checked it out (or one identical to it) when Stu Basore owned it in the mid 60's.

Bobbe

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 15 Jun 2008 7:11 pm

hey, i've got a couple push pulls i wouldn't mind butchering to add splits....nothing's sacred to me...how do you do it???

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 16 Jun 2008 3:27 pm

Thats a rare one!

Chris, if you start in on one of yours, let us know the results.
I saw at least 1 screw hole in the wraparound part of the neck on Bill Johnson's old guitar at the Emmons factory once. It had a cap screw in it and I wondered if it might have been something that someone was up to regarding splits. Im sure only Bill could answer that.
Bobbe, yer a chimer*

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 16 Jun 2008 9:06 pm

My solution to splits on a PP is only theoretical, I've never tried it, as it would be too 'clunky'.

The basic principle is that the lowering rod has the usual collar that pushes the lowering changer segment, but also passes through the lowering changer segment an adjustable distance.

Thus, when the string is raised, then the lowering lever/pedal is activated, the portion of lowering rod that sticks through the lowering segment will push the raise finger back, compressing the buffer spring on the raise rod bellcrank.

A few sketches will follow soon

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 16 Jun 2008 9:32 pm

I think splits are nice but not at all necessary. I certainly don't miss them when I play a push pull however when I play a LeGrande I do use the split on the 6th string but that is about all. It is more a convenience than a necessity because you can go somewhere else and get about anything you need and there are some nice things you can do on a push pull that you can't on an all pull. I am referring to the fact that if you engage a raise and release it while a lower is engaged it will go straight to the lowered note and vice versa which can give the effect of a 1 1/2 tone drop on string 6 or a full 2 tone drop on string 5 if you have the Franklin pedal.
I am not one who believes that the push pull is the best guitar out there but I don't think there is a better one. I never have a bad tone day with a push pull and the feel is perfect for me. But on the other hand I love to play a LeGrande or a Magnum or a Franklin or an EMCI. I could be content with any one of the above mentioned guitars and I am sure the list could be longer except I don't have any other makes at this time but there is a new BMI on the way.
Jerry

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 16 Jun 2008 10:57 pm

Some years ago when I lived in NC, Lin Netherton of Asheville NC had designed and built a system like this. I saw him at a jam session in Cruso NC one Sunday and he had built an aluminum box around each of the changers on his D-10 p/p so that no one could see how he'd done it. I have no idea if it worked out over the long haul. He said back then that it worked fine with none of the inherent backlash found in p/p or pull-release systems when strings are both raised and lowered, or 'split'.
PRR

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 17 Jun 2008 11:18 am

the 'secret box' idea is funny....maybe if it hadn't been so secret, i would have heard of this paranoid unknown before!

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 17 Jun 2008 1:58 pm

Chris - I think he is a machinist by trade. I know he was never much of a 'mixer' when it came to the social situations. He has always been a pretty good picker, but a zip socially. He was very secretive about the experimental changer, but spread the word around the mountains of NC and upstate SC that he had finally succeeded in building this thing and that it worked well. He talked of patents, but I really don't think this thing ever went anywhere. If it really had, there'd be a bunch of guys using them now. If the patent thing had become a reality, I'm sure that a licensing arrangement would have already been in place for their manufacture if in no other place, fellow North Carolinian company, Emmons!!!
PRR

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 17 Jun 2008 2:11 pm

I like what Jerry said:
"I am not one who believes that the push pull is the best guitar out there but I don't think there is a better one. "
It's kind of like what Barney kessel said about Johnny Smith: "He's not the best but there's nobody better".

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Jun 2008 5:43 pm

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 17 Jun 2008 10:32 pm

Hey, Bobbe, don't slay the messenger. Just passing along a bit of info here. If that 'gizmo' was all that he claimed it to be, there would be someone using it if it was worthy. Maybe someone is, hence the smiley faces...don't know, ain't interested...I play Whitney's...don't need the p/p thing to do the same thing anyhow.
PRR
PS - I never cover up any 'secrets' with an aluminum cover/box.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 18 Jun 2008 11:19 am

Here's my take on it

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 19 Jun 2008 9:24 am

Richard,

with the addition of a necessary 1/2 tone tuner on the raise crank, thats the only tuneable method that Ive seen or have used to put splits on p/p guitars for my customers, at their request. It does put a hitch in the pedal feel. While tuneability is definitely desirable, the hitch feels like horse-hockey. Nice diagrams, btw.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 19 Jun 2008 9:54 am

Thanks Mike,
I got the basic diagrams off the Carter site (I hope they don't mind), and added my mods.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 19 Jun 2008 10:52 am

HI Bobbe; wasn't Stu's guitar originally owned by Weldon?

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Emmons PP. Don't shoot me down in flames.

Emmons PP. Don't shoot me down in flames.

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