The p/p tone: misattribution?

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 7 May 2008 9:42 pm

At the risk of getting flamed to death... What the heck!

It has long been said that a p/p's tonal quality is a result of the positive stops in the changer. I'm sure that does have an effect on the sound, but somehow, I also have this feeling that something else is at play there... Some less-obvious physical difference between that and other guitars. I'm not going to say what I think it is, but I'm just asking: can anyone relate to that hunch?

Robert Cates · Post by **Robert Cates** » 8 May 2008 5:24 am

Duane
It seems as tho the forum members talk about the same subject matter time and time again. I started a thread awhile back that asked the same question. I did get a lot of response to that topic but no one really knew for sure what caused the different sound of a push pull. (Well I should say that one person did know but he wasn't telling us until we visited him)

One of the best answers was from Chris, who said that when they designed and make the push pull it was ....Magic.

So now you know

Bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 May 2008 7:50 am

I think it's more that the guy who designed the push-pull mechanism is MAGIC.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 8 May 2008 8:25 am

I think that the pickup is a very big part of it.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 8 May 2008 8:40 am

Bobbe Seymour says there are several unique aspects of the Emmons p/p that contribute to the tone. He has an exact number of features in mind, I forget the number. But he wont say what they all are.

BTW, I swapped the stock single coil pickup on my '80s 12-string Emmons p/p with a Truetone pup. The sound was no better, or worse. Those are two very good and very similar pickups. Unless your p/p pickup is very old, don't bother swapping it out. They don't get any better.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 8 May 2008 9:43 am

Regarding what Dave just said -- if your push pull pickup is very old, send it to me. I will take all the lightly wound Emmons pickups I can find. I also want another set of the tall skinny coil Emmons pickups that mount to the body instead of the neck.
Chris

Robert Cates · Post by **Robert Cates** » 8 May 2008 9:54 am

Hey David
What height are your pickups on your PP? I have a Fessy with TT pup which is about 2 quarters down

The PP is original pup that is one quarter down

The PP seems very hot compared to the Fessy. So hot that I have to hold it back some and calm her down.

A big difference in the sound of the two.
Bob

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 8 May 2008 10:58 am

I must have missed that thread, Robert.

Robert Cates · Post by **Robert Cates** » 8 May 2008 11:21 am

Thats alright Duane
I wasn't throwing flame at you or trying to shoot you down or anything.

We forum members just love to hash this stuff over and over.
What better subjects are there these good ole electric cheese slicing,pedal stomping,whining,crying, string bending machine.

have a good day
Bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 May 2008 11:35 am

Something Ricky Davis said on another thread came to mind. He said (something to the effect that) when he plays a push-pull it sounds like a Sho-Bud. I come from the other direction. I usually look for a sound that is push-pull like and whatever I play sounds a lot like a push-pull.

On my most recent CD I used both my Fessy and my push-pull. If you are interested in comparing, there are sound samples on this page -- click here

Which one's which?

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 8 May 2008 11:55 am

Oh I know you didn't mean anything by that Robert; that was actually me kind of wishing I'd looked to see if the topic already existed, which is what I usually do, so there aren't several threads of the same topic. Of course, an idea that specific among p/p tone subjects is kind of hard to search for with keywords, so I probably couldn't have found it anyway.

I'm sure there are several things that play into the sound, besides the positive stops and pickups. Cabinet construction, changer mounting, neck mounting, materials, finger thickness, and probably a dozen other factors working in harmony make the sound happen. One of these days, I'd like to dig deeper into this by taking a mechanic's stethoscope and chasing it down.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 8 May 2008 1:41 pm

I know most people attribute that great P/P sound, is due largely to the contact between body and the raise changer fingers. I'm not saying this is untrue, but that factor only comes into play when strings are being raised.

I haven't noticed any decrease in "tone quality" when playing open or lowered strings that are not in direct body contact. Initially I wondered if the vibration of those strings were being indirectly transmitted through engaged pedals that affected other strings (e.g vibrations from strings 1 and 2 transmitted through the body while pedals A+B were pushed), but the P/P tone is evident when no pedals are engaged.

As far as pickups are concerned, I've heard P/P's with Truetones, BL's and Tonealigners installed, all of which invariably still sound like Emmons'.

....which leads me to conclude that the superior Emmons sound is purely due to "magic" and will never be understood by mere mortals.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 8 May 2008 2:31 pm

I remember Crawford told me once that he figured there were "64 unique factors" that contributed to the p/p sound... now, HE had some time on his hands!

Robert Cates · Post by **Robert Cates** » 8 May 2008 3:15 pm

But Tony
If you are playing open(no pedals) the fingers are contacting the body via the metal screws thru the changer .Same with the lowering position..

Voila..there you have it

Larry
I checked out your songs on your web site and its very hard to tell..I think that the Patsy Cline song was done on your PP..I fall to pieces...

Just guessing mostly....Very good web site by the way

Bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 May 2008 3:34 pm

Good ear, Bob
There are others.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 8 May 2008 3:38 pm

Robert:
in the open position, the fingers are only are only touching the body via the changer axle, same as all pull guitars.

in the lowered position, they contact the end plate only, not the cabinet. The other guitar that depends on endplate stops (both raises and lowers) is the ZB.

Also if body contact is the main criterion for the Emmons sound, then it follows that Marlens, newer Carters and Zums should all yield the classic P/P sound.

Robert Cates · Post by **Robert Cates** » 8 May 2008 3:54 pm

Well I think that you know a lot more about it than I do but I am missing something here. The fingers in the open position are only touching at the axle? What about the medal screws thru the changer? Don't these touch the finger in the open position? Which is ulike an all pull.

Bob

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 8 May 2008 4:05 pm

Robert,

Well, on further review I'm thinking your right.

The raise fingers rest against the tuning screws on the lowering fingers which are pulled against the body, by the return springs at rest......so there is indirect body contact at all times.

I guess I don't know much more than you!

Robert Cates · Post by **Robert Cates** » 8 May 2008 4:22 pm

Well Tony..thats what is great about this forum..We can hash this stuff over..

Larry..I think that Windy and Warm is Emmons

Move it is Fessy
Don't know why is Fessy

Thats my guess...Bob

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 8 May 2008 9:23 pm

Michael Douchette wrote:I remember Crawford told me once that he figured there were "64 unique factors"

So, my question is this: how does that one factor (the positive stops) stack up against the other "63"?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 8 May 2008 11:41 pm

I think it's the rubber tips on the legs.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 9 May 2008 6:24 am

It's because of the name plate.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 9 May 2008 6:40 am

larry...when you say nothing at all?

if i'm wrong this'll prove it doesn't matter!

Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 9 May 2008 7:17 am

Interestingly P/P tone varies from instrument to instrument, even unamplified, but they still all seem to have something in common that we recognize as the P/P tonal quality. Go figure.

I once had a bolt-on S10 that was very "twangy". I wonder if a split-tail model might sound more like that if you put aluminum shims in between the changer and neck.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 9 May 2008 7:22 am

desplitification!

The Steel Guitar Forum

The p/p tone: misattribution?

The p/p tone: misattribution?

reason for that sound

pick up on pp

no problem