Question.. Teenage kids listening to Satanic Music?

[Charles Davidson]

Just my opinion,But I do think song lyrics can warp some kids minds[not all but some]Some of the old songs did have violent lyrics such asBut some of the lyrics in RAP music praising Murder,incest,downgrading women,calling them Ho's and B's,murder,killing cops,Not snitching if you witness a crime,killing your parents,Why do you see eight year old boys being charged with rape,Third graders telling their teachers to go *(%$ themselves,Don't say this music and the smut on some TV shows don't effect young minds.I hear it often seven and eight year olds using language that would make a sailor cring.A lot of the blame is the SP and PC crowd.ANYTHING goes.DYKBC.

[Tucker Jackson]

The notion that music -- and music alone -- can cause people to kill is absurd.

On the other hand, if people want to argue that they think the message in certain music is too negative... that is a valid opinion and a good argument can be made to defend it.

But it's also a completely different thing than saying some music drives otherwise sane people to kill.

[Scott Shipley]

With all due respect, it doesn't seem to me that there is that much difference in song lyrics. "Cocaine Blues" is no less to the point than some of the new stuff. Go check out some of Gov. Jimmy Davis' material from the late 1930's, pre "Sunshine." If you took away the hillbilly string band and added a dj and a posse, it would undoubtedly receive the same P.M.R.C. stamp of disapproval as the gangsta stuff. The problem as I see it (imho) is that we have raised a generation (or two) that by and large do not feel the sense of responsibility that we did in the past. A big lack of respect, for self as well as others, let alone just for life itself. My point is that music hasn't changed that much, we have.
Keep in mind that everyone has at least a touch of insanity, some more than others. The thing that seperates us is how we react to each others insanity.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Certainly music can't drive a sane person to commit an insane act, but think about this. We ARE influenced by not just the the music we listen to, but the entire sub-culture of which the music is a part. How many of us smoked weed because everybody else was doing it and the music we listened to at the time told us it was cool.

Unfortunately today we have inner cities that are infested with a violent culture gangs and drugs, and guns in the hands of children and teenagers, and music that talks about killing cops and treating women as sex objects.

Is it possible that the violent message in the music is a factor in the obscene murder rate that plagues our inner cities?

I don't know the answer, but the question can't be dismissed.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

.....guns in the hands of children and teenagers....... Is it possible that the violent message in the music is a factor in the obscene murder rate that plagues our inner cities?

Could it be that the guns have anything to do with it?

Is the music reflecting the society or the society reflecting the music?
Something has gone terribly wrong, and blaming the music/pop culture is just too easy. The problem is a lot more complex, and in a society where greed, both corporate and private, is rewarded and the most common way to measure a human being's value is by how much wealth and power you have, we end up dehumanizing each other.
Our whole 'civilization' - from the very top to the inner cities and ghettos, has become very hard and inhumane.


Steinar

[Edward Meisse]

Megadittos Steinar.

[Mike Winter]

Back in the day when I was getting high on a regular basis, the music was NOT about raping chicks, killing cops, etc. It was about love, social consciousness and digging life. The last thing we wanted to do was kill anybody or blow up a building. I agree there is a big difference between "Let's Come Together," by the Youngbloods and anything by Rob Zombie. But, given that, I still say that music won't push someone over the edge unless they are mentally or spiritually unstable.

[Charles Davidson]

As I said before,yes there were songs of the past with some violent lyrics,But can't ever remember Cash,Jimmy Davis,etc ever did songs that glorified,incest,rape,denigrate women,It's ok to murder police,If your parents disciple you,then just kill them,There are so many kids hearing this vile crap in RAP music from the time they are babies,It DOES have an effect on [some of them].If you think not,that's ok,but you are wrong.DYKBC.

[Dave Mudgett]

I dunno, Mike W. - the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Roughly contemporaneous to the Youngbloods singing "Get Together", the MC5 was singing "Kick Out the Jams, MF" and "The Motor City's Burning" and Ozzie Osborne with Black Sabbath was singing "Paranoid". The late 60s were hardly all about peace and love.

Steinar, I'm not exactly sure what guns have to do with any of this, either. Guns have been around for centuries now. The ratio of populace firepower to government firepower is probably at the lowest point in the history of armament. I think we should leave this issue alone. If one person makes a comment about guns, another (OK, I'm guilty) will feel the need to comment on that, and so on.

Again - ascribing cause and effect when dealing with humans is fraught with problems - I don't care whether you want to talk about music, popular culture, violence, or anything else.

First - there are usually a great many things going on in any human system - the number of variables is typically huge. Second, one can't generally separate these variables and study anything in isolation. Third, the very process of studying people often changes their behavior. The Hawthorne Effect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect - more or less the social-science analog of the uncertainty principle in physics - must be carefully considered. No white lab coats here.

I think it's reasonable to just state opinions here. But I think this is purely "armchair BS'ing" - as long as we don't take it seriously, no harm done. But if we start to believe this is anything else, it will probably turn ugly. IMHO.

I don't know the answer, but the question can't be dismissed.

I dunno, Mike P. Maybe not dismissed, but if there's really no way to answer it, maybe ignored?

Charlie - I think music - especially country and blues music - is replete with examples. Johnny Cash's "Delia's Gone", "Folsom Prison". Pat Hare (one of Muddy Waters' guitar players) recorded "I'm Gonna Murder My Baby. Interestingly, Hare did just that in 1962. What was the cause, what was the effect?

The issue is cause and effect. Does the music cause the behavior, does the mind that would do this kind of stuff cause the music, or are they just coincidental? I don't know, and I honestly doubt anybody really does or ever will.

If you think not,that's ok,but you are wrong.

Wrong about what?

That's my armchair BS opinion.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Steinar, I'm not exactly sure what guns have to do with any of this, either.

Well, it was Mike who mentioned kids and teenagers running around with guns, so in light of that I found complaining about the music they listen to a bit ironic.

Don't worry, I have no intention of starting a discussion about gun control, I know from previous experiences what an exercise in futility it is to discuss that with you guys...

Steinar

[Mike Winter]

I gotcha, Dave M. The crowd I hung with was pretty peaceful. I remember sitting around...high as a kite...listening to John Mayall's "Turning Point." We went to our share of anti-war demonstrations, but we really were just looking for a good time, wishing things would change, but not interested in burning buildings, although we hated Nixon...just like most of us hate the current administration.

[Dave Mudgett]

Steinar, 10-4. I guess my point was that, in a lot of ways, there are a lot more rules and regs now than 40 years ago when I was hangin' out, and a lot more capacity - in terms of feet on the ground, technology, prisons, mind-control tools, etc. - to enforce them. But things are palpably a lot worse now than then. Maybe all the rules and regs and "zero tolerance" hasn't worked so well - perhaps? Or maybe they have - maybe it would be a lot worse without them. I don't know the causes and effects, and I don't think anybody else does either. Oh, those in power say they do - but I think it's illusory and motivated by desire for more power and control.

Mike, I guess my point was that if you wanted outrageous music, it wasn't hard to find. But I agree, most of us were much more chilled out. But again, what are the causes and what are the effects?

[Stephan Franck]

Gee, I wonder what kind of "satanic music" the Spanish inquisition was listening to...

[Edward Meisse]

As things get worser and worser, I keep thinking of the experiment with the rats. The one where they put a male and a female together in a big enclosure and kept giving them plenty of food. When a certain population density was achieved, they began to get quarrelsome. At some point they quit having any unnecessary social interaction, including copulation. Eventually the population declined to zero. I think many of our troubles, and not just environmental ones, arise from the current overdensity of population.

[Charles Davidson]

Some of the old songs,Cash,the old blues songs etc,is still being used to defend this stuff that YOUNG kids have been exposed to over the last several years,There is no comparison to then and now,In the last few years this trash condoning killing cops,women are good for nothing except sex objects,NOTHING is wrong with rape or incest,has flooded the airwaves,TV channels,sold untold MILLIONS of CD'S,and made millionaires out of perverted record executives and artist,that could'nt care less what it does to children,all they care about is the money they make,they are just as despicable as a drug dealer hanging around an elementary school selling his wares,Very YOUNG kids are being exposed to this crap and think it's so COOL.DYKBC.

[b0b]

Listening to rock for lyrics is sort of like looking at Playboy for articles.

[David L. Donald]

I have to agree with Crowbear, Joey, Mr. Meisse and David Mugget.

If a person is inclined towards evil,
maybe that can be re-enforced a bit 'by words',
but it doesn't change a basically good person
to suddenly become a satanic killer.

'Ok, I tell you all you MUST go and kill your neighbor,
because he is a bad influence on your children.'
GO DO IT! NOW.. !
.......
........
........
What you didn't go an kill the neighbor
because I told you too...

Hmmmmm guess it didn't work.
May be if I KEEP telling you.
And do it on TV and Radio and newspapers,
Oh that's war,
Ok, I guess reasonable people can
eventually be talked into killing.

Over there, Over There,
Send the word
Send the word Over there,
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming.....

Well the song helped get us patriotic for the cause.

But kids listening to songs and becoming psyco killers;
Nah, it's just too simple to blame the music.
A non moving easy target; if it talks back
you ignore it anyways.

Turning evil takes a mental illness induced pre-disposition,
or cronic abuse, physical and mental;
a MUCH bigger push externally than just words...

Get your kids heads on right to begin with
and they won't be susceptable to bad music lyrics.
They may listen with friends, but won't suddenly believe B.S.

Now peer pressure on the other hand CAN turn a good kid bad,
especially if he/she feels alienated BIG TIME from his parents.

Coming down hard on music that is NOT actually warping their brains,
but is totally against 'YOUR philosophy'
but ALL their friends like...
WILL likely alienate them...
Disapprove of it sure, they expect that.

Just don't confuse teenage rebellion or limits testing
with 'turning bad' because of bad music.
It is part, just another part,
of their personal differentiation
as individuals searching.
i.e. finding themselves and growing up.

So beware of HOW you disapprove of their music.
You could be that bigger push into preferring
the music's council to yours, because you
become so adversarial to the child.

Only YOU can push your child away into the wrong elements.
Those elements may try and pull,
but unless you are pushing too, it ain't gonna happen.
Not to a good, stable, well-loved child with
no phsycologic/medical issues.

It is a CLASSIC story; many films of same:
Midwestern boy or girl runs away from
oppressive, absolutist, mid-western parents
and ends up REALLY in a bad place,
and unprepared for it, and desperate.
But absolutely unwilling to go 'back home'.

Because HOME has NO UNDERSTANDING or FORGIVENESS at all.
Rock solid maybe, but set in stone too.
Even when someone finally talks them into returning,
it's STILL THE SAME, just older
and more set in it's ways.

Not singling out the Midwest per se,
it is just the bigger, obvious cliché.

Our brains do process information,
but if our brains work properly,
we make good decisions with that information.

Anyone saying 'the music made them do it',
is saying that in court, on lawyers advice.
Peer presure, desperation, internal amorality,
phsycosis, drugs; those things can make someone go bad.
It may only me short term too.

Some people never have the good switch turned on,
they have the 'I'll stay out of hassles' switch,
and nothing more. Amorality. No sense of right and wrong,
only the logic to avoid trouble, if possible.
But not to care if something is bad or not.

Song lyrics causing it... no chance,
they were inclined to be bad
BEFORE they heard the bad words.

In the USA I don't think over-population, causing
reduced procreation is a real issue.

Cities are cities, and people are tooth and jowl,
but real over-population like the rat scenario is more like
europe during the middle ages, London during the plagues,
or as much so sections of China now.

Shanghai and it's sister city are, together, the size of 1/2 Rhode Island...
JUST those two cities not including their suburbs.
With the suburbs it is MUCH bigger that RI.

There is a relatively unknown city in southern China
that is twice the size of Shanghai by many reports.
So big they can't be sure how big.

Remember the 1 child per couple law is STILL in effect there.


Bangkok is not as big, yet they just can't tell the population at all.
Officially 7 million, but most likely well over 17 million on any given day.
And 85% n at or below the poverty mark.

That that is local over-population.
Yet the country's population and area is about the same as France.
Smaller than New York State.

IMHO. "The devil is in the details",
but not so much in the song lyrics...
that's the work of MEN on earth.

Nether Banks Of The Ohio nor Sympathy For The Devil,
ever made me even THINK about killing someone.

But, B.o.t.O. a classic old country song is sung by a killer.
Long Black Veil by the executed killer no less.

Yet S.f.t.D. is showing up evil into the light
to be repudiated, by Mick using irony and sarcasm,
if you REALLY listen to his lyrics and subtext of the lyrics.

Many just saw the title and banned it out right.

[Tony Prior]

Listening to rock for lyrics is sort of like looking at Playboy for articles.

and would this be the same as going to Hooters for the "WINGS " ?

[David L. Donald]

Water wings!
Wow! Look at'er float!

[Donny Hinson]

Kids today listen to a lot of this wierd stuff..
Can it make them hear voices in their heads and be out of control of their thoughts and actions..?

Warning - Satire Approaching!

Yes, music (any kind, not merely Satanic) can definitely screw up your brain. As a few posters have pointed out, more than one felon has said "the music", or "the voices" made them do what they did.

As further evidence, I offer that deaf people are some of the most law-abiding people on the planet. Have you ever heard of a deaf serial-killer? Mass Murderer? Bank Robber? Arsonist? Nope, not even a shop-lifter!

'Course, you could say the same thing about blind people, too. I guess that's good evidence that all we see and hear really does make us bad people.

[David L. Donald]

Of course with deaf people,
especially those who have never heard a voice,

HOW do they KNOW they are NOT hearing voices
to let us know this with signs....???

Do they have internal conversations in different characters?
Good cop/bad cop, angel/imp?
I imagine it must be quite hard to diagnose
a schitsophrenic deaf person.
Maybe why there's so few reported.

If you can't hear people coming to catch you,
maybe you tend not to do things your shouldn't.

I have meet 2 blind thieves.
One was an incredible pickpocket, retired,
and performing it as street theater in France.
He could take your cojones without you knowing.

The other tried to walk out with 2 reels of 1" tape
from the studio...
he got caught, because he didn't HEAR my dad watching him...

[Erv Niehaus]

I think it's the water.

Who knows what they put in those bottles!!!

[David Mason]

Regarding causation vs. opportunity, I have read that if you simply, automatically, locked up all the young males in the world between the ages of 15 and 25 years old, you would eliminate 95% of all violent crime and end warfare as we know it. I know a few parents of teenage boys who wholeheartedly support the proposal....

[David L. Donald]

Not to mention traffic accidents.

This is the theory behind military schools.
Put them in a VERY controled environment,
JUST short of jail.

[Dave Mudgett]

and would this be the same as going to Hooters for the "WINGS " ?

No, around here they go for their world-famous hamburgers.

I agree that listening to rock for lyrics is typically pointless - to my tastes, there are only a handful of rock lyricists out there very far from "Bird bird bird, bird is the word." But that is not absolute, nor does it mean that some people aren't deeply into rock lyrics regardless of our perception about their quality.

Look at videos of live rock concerts, or new country concerts, more or less the same thing. People in the audience often know the lyrics and mouth them along with the band. In fact, that is one of the measures of success of a band - how many people are mouthing the lyrics when they play.

Used like this, I think (again my armchair BS opinion, I offer no proof nor any method to prove it) music lyrics can become a type of catechism for some people. I also think that popular music in general can become, for some people, a kind of subtext or storyline for their life. But that doesn't answer the cause and effect issue at all.

To me, on all these questions, the fundamental issue is this:

Does the "legal freedom" to make choices which may have "good" or "bad" associations cause people to do "good" or "bad" things? In this case, the freedom is to listen to music of whatever type one wants, but the issue cuts across a wide swath of social issues which I won't get into because they would get us very far off-topic.

In considering this type of issue, one must consider both the effect of permitting such choices and the effect of outlawing such choices. Unless one can demonstrably prove that permitting such a choice causes significant problems for others, I think we should leave it alone out of concern for the "Law of Unintended Consequences" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence

Regarding causation vs. opportunity, I have read that if you simply, automatically, locked up all the young males in the world between the ages of 15 and 25 years old, you would eliminate 95% of all violent crime and end warfare as we know it. I know a few parents of teenage boys who wholeheartedly support the proposal....

David M., I couldn't come up with a better example for the LUC if I tried all day. I expect they would be a formidable army bent on destroying society when they got out at 26. This hasn't stopped many from tryng to exert hard control on kids. If youth crime statistics are any measure, it doesn't seem to be working very well. But who knows what the causes and effects are here?