Rude Awakenings Affecting Lifestyles

[chris ivey]

deterioration of a culture? a government that truth and integrity have no place in...$ fed reserve with no backing for the dollar...and parents who let their children wear pants around their knees...i could go on....i wish b0b would close this stupid hankeyism..

[Dave Mudgett]

why does everyone keep encouraging him..?

Maybe you'd like to decide which threads I should respond to and which I shouldn't. Are you the forum brain police?

f) an egotistical yapper who uses what he considers intelligent wordplay to say very little!

As Duane said - this is just name calling.

so many words...so few points.. and then everyone tries to compete on that level!

Did you read what I wrote? You don't have to, but if you don't know what I'm saying, I would argue that you should withold comment.

oh sorry.........i must be in the wrong forum!!

No - just on the wrong thread. It's obvious you don't want to be here - so why are you?

deterioration of a culture? a government that truth and integrity have no place in...$ fed reserve with no backing for the dollar...and parents who let their children wear pants around their knees...i could go on....

Chris - you seem to want harass those who want to discuss something that you're not interested in. The thread is about a particular music culture, not the federal reserve or the culture at large. This is not a political thread - you should keep your politics to yourself.

... stupid hankeyism..

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not post any material which is knowingly false, defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, racist or illegal.

abusive...harassing - I think you should think about it. I only reacted after your second personal insult.

[Joe Drivdahl]

Dave,
Ok, I concede that gauging deterioration of culture is a judgment call.

If there was some way to measure the rate of deterioration of a given society, such as there is for attenuation, then maybe it wouldn't be a value judgment. But there is no such measuring device for culture; although, there are indicators such as rising crime and unemployment rates, etc, but they are only indicators of a declining economy, not a deteriorating society.

Still, if audiences are willing to accept lesser quality, then doesn’t the entire industry suffer? If the customer is wiling to accept shoddy workmanship, and poor quality, then doesn’t that lower the bar for everyone? Why should producers strive for quality when the buyer doesn’t care? Doesn’t that suggest some degree of deterioration of quality even though it’s not measurable?

Joe

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah, Joe - my value system is with you on that. I often get discouraged by the way mainstream music has proceeded. To me - yes, it cheapens the mainstream musical culture.

But - there's lots of great music out there, in all styles. More than ever before. But, to use an electrical engineering term, the "signal" is just getting buried by the "noise", and it's very difficult to get heard above it all.

My opinion - it's going to take a massive effort to organize resistance to this. But first we have to agree that we're not going to take on the powers that be on their own terms. They will win.

If you have 400 pound defensive guards, centers, and tackles, going up the middle is not usually a great strategy. Better to do an end run. To me, this means to gather one's forces and strengths, develop them in isolation, get strong, and then bushwhack them when they're not looking.

[Joe Drivdahl]

I wonder to what degree video really did kill the radio star? How much of the artist's success today is based on what he or she looks like rather than musical ability?

Can a grassroots approach succeed without some "beautiful" people in the foreground? Who can afford all the personal managers, hair stylists, trainers and whatnot to become one of the beautiful people? And once they have achieved "the look", they'll get stolen away by big money and we're back to square one.

It reminds me of the Microsoft model: If they pose a threat, buy 'em out. If they won't sell, develop a copy of their product and out market them.

Joe

[Doug Beaumier]

How much of the artist's success today is based on what he or she looks like rather than musical ability?

110%, unfortunately.

[Bill Hankey]

Some of the most proficient writing skills I've seen to date, have appeared today in this thread. For that reason, I wish to express my gratitude for the efforts put forth on this day. I'm finding it difficult to respond in kind. There is a ton of expertise and intellectual prowess poised to rectify any form of misguiding or inaccurate terminology. This becomes very helpful in a musical sense. Little bouts with feelings of not bridging the gaps in technical issues, are becoming more noticeable, as the replies bring with them a higher level of education. Some things are subject to sudden changes, especially creative writing.

[Mike Winter]

Bill said:

...as the replies bring with them a higher level of education...

That's your opinion. It isn't a matter of education. It's a matter of whether or not some of us want to play into your game of using esoteric verbiage...some of us are fairly well educated...if you're REALLY interested in communicating, you wouldn't try so hard to confuse everybody...a good part of what you say doesn't make sense the way you verbalize it, anyway. Of course, you have some that are schooled in the "groves of academia" defending you at every turn. No matter. Talk plain and most here will dive in and participate with great relish. You DO have something valuable to contribute; you either don't know...or don't care...to articulate it on a reasonable level. "Forum brain police?" Hardly. It's just easier to communicate on a reasonably understood level. That's all. Dave M said, "Write on." I agree. Just think about the big picture, that of communicating to "everyman." Exercise wisdom. If you want to communicate to "everyman," then do so on everyman's level, not on your own. Just my opinion, of course.

[Dave Mudgett]

It reminds me of the Microsoft model: If they pose a threat, buy 'em out. If they won't sell, develop a copy of their product and out market them.

There are people out there who can't be bought. I call 'em "hardheads". Hardcore bluegrassers are an example. There are hardcore blues people, mainstream jazzers, folkies, and so on. If you don't require being a media superstar, you can do just fine. By "doing just fine", I mean stick to your guns and make a good living.

I think the hardcore honkytonk country folks could do this. But then there's the curse that comes from country now being a mainstream style - the allure of big stardom is probably hard to put aside for many.

But the country music that I love wasn't practiced by big national superstars. Country was a regional music. "Big" record sales were measured in the tens of thousands, not milliions.

I don't think I'm wrong on this. It even pervades this forum - what is the longest thread on the "Music" forum right now? It's about "American Idol" - 11 pages, 252 posts, and 6191 views as of this moment. Until we chuck that model in the toilet, probably nothing will change. No disrespect intended - if you love "Idol", that's just fine with me. But I, personally, think it's an incredibly bad music biz model. That's my value system speakin'. YMMV. Flack vest on.

Of course, you have some that are schooled in the "groves of academia" defending you at every turn.

My defense of Bill is only of his right to speak as he pleases. It has absolutely nothing to do with academia. I distinctly prefer a dice-and-slice style of direct communication. But I don't think I - or any of us - have the power to insist on that for others on this forum. {But I do insist on it for my students. }

BTW - I think Bill has tried to be more direct recently.

[Mike Winter]

I was hoping the Hippie thread would keep going...

Dave said:

BTW - I think Bill has tried to be more direct recently.

I agree...

[David L. Donald]

One man's deterioration of the past
is another mans progress into the future.

Cases in point:

Computers were all run with tubes,
and what you can now fit in your watch,
which runs and calculates without worry 24/7
used to take two rooms and a dozen techs
to keep running for an hour.

Then transitors came in computers and TV's
got smaller and then IC's came; smaller faster AGAIN.

Then the net and suddenly we can communicate huge
amounts of info, across great distances,

BUT we also get computer widows, Pedo-trolls
& online stalkers, SPAM,
and information overload.

During that same time guitar amps turned solid state,
and we lost lots of 'Tone', and touch and feel.
Tubes were smashed by the 10s of thousands as worthless junk taking up space

Now guitar amps with tubes are selling for thousands of dollars,
and individual tubes, like those smashed 20 years ago,
are costing $15 to $100 EACH. Instead of $1-$3

Car stereos went from a mono tube radio in the dash,
to 400-1,000w boomboxes on wheels pumping hiphop mysogeny
right through your cars closed windows because
solid state makes it so small, it can fit HUGE power in a tiny space.
And the owners are going deaf faster than metal heads.
So you get mean spirited mysogenists who can't hear.

Now you Stereo Steel can plug into 1,000w
and an old fart can carry it and not die trying.
But we now prefer a Revelation preamp; all tubes.

One mans progress is another mans deterioration, until it becomes progress again.

[David L. Donald]

Yes Bill has been more direct lately,
but It is not to us to order him to be so.
It' is his choice, if he chooses.

Of course, you have some that are schooled in the "groves of academia" defending you at every turn.

'groves of academia'
why does this sound like calling teachers a cloistered,
out of touch world of elitist, liberal, intelectual snobs,
looking down on the common man as un-educated rable.
I can't say I have met more than a couple of teachers
that might vaguely resemble that description.
A definite minority, Northeast or Midwest.

Some would call ALL steel guitar players over-educated
musicians playing an elitist instrument,
that most can't think about playing.
Looking down on mere guitarists and singers as lazy bums.

I can NOT understand why people don't just
let Bill write as he sees fit,
and get on with their OWN business.

Does he offend you so much
that you are compelled to offend him?

It is NOT defending Bill per se,
he can defend himself,
it is just not understanding
why you BOTHER to bother him at all.

I have rarely if ever gathered in the groves.
And I AM ANYTHING BUT AN ACADEMIC.
But I read a lot.
Twas brillig and the slithy toves
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

[Mike Winter]

"Groves of academia," a commonly understood term meaning nothing more than those "schooled." They're on a different level, "academically" speaking. In my mind, it isn't a matter of defending anybody. It's just that a lot of us would just like to communicate on a level conducive to all. The easy answer would be be to just not participate in the threads. Maybe that would be best...let those who don't mind wading through the surperfluous verbiage go ahead and do so. I understand that people here have the "right" to verbalize anyway they want to. I just think it more practical to communicate on a level that MOST can...or want to...communicate. In other words, I am quite capable of saying, "A trio of sightless rodents," but would rather communicate, "Three blind mice." It isn't a matter of being educated. It's a matter of being practical.

[David L. Donald]

But there should be no issues also to having
something more difficult to look at,
and parse or tease a meaning or three from.

Often times ambiguity leads to multiple meanings
and greater discussion of unexpected things.

Not just a simple one thought leads to Yes or No;
I like/ I don't like, simpliciy.
Life is NOT simple, why should we expect
ALL writings and ideas to reflect a simplicity
that doesn't exist.

The demand for simplicity in a convoluted world
may simply be an expression of desire to CONTROL
a world out of the individual's control.

Or just one small part of it,
to feel LESS helpless in the face of
what we can NOT control.

[Joe Drivdahl]

Dave said:

There are people out there who can't be bought. I call 'em "hardheads". Hardcore bluegrassers are an example. There are hardcore blues people, mainstream jazzers, folkies, and so on.

I don't know about that, Dave. Maybe, but then again maybe they just haven't been given the opportunity to sell out. Lets see, Alison Kraus, Stuart Duncan, Jerry Douglas all came from bluegrass, but have turned country. I don't want to classify these people as "sell outs" because they are some of the best musicians in the world, but they aren't going to lead the charge against big music either because they are part of it.

Rhonda Vincent hasn't sold out yet. Good for her. I remember when Leann Womack was bluegrass. Now she's gone country.

I just don't know if anyone can deny fame and fortune if the oportunity comes knocking. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

Joe

[David L. Donald]

The first 3 of those just named are NOT sell outs.
They are intelligent musicians who have expanded
beyond their core musics into other musics also.

They are NOT hide bound.

BUT many of their core fans ARE,
and hate them doing anything
that is NOT what they THINK is
their 'Real Music'.

Those are the ones that can't be bought.

Allison, Stuart and Jerry also venture into jazz a bit,
they are musicians first, stylists second. Don't forget Bela.


So Rhonda doesn't care about other musics at this point, fine.
If she did stretch out a bit I wouldn't scream sell out.
I assume she doesn't suddenly dislike bluegrass, Allison, Stuart and Jerry don't.
Oh also Mark O'Connor too.
What about Edgar Meyer playing bluegrass,
a sellout from Classical music? No he still plays that.

A sell out is someone who does somethings he dislikes just for the money.

Jerry, Stuart and Allison clearly love all the music they do,
whether it fits to their core fan base or not.

I feel in some ways they have STOPPED selling out,
by pandering ONLY to a hardcore unchanging fan base
that can't see beyond ONE musical STYLE.

They play music they feel.
Not JUST music their fan base demands they not deviate from.

I can't say on Lee Ann, I never knew her at all as bluegrass.
But I will note, many young bluegrass players
came in as 'family bluegrass players',
it was expected of them part of their upbringing.
And later when their musical minds mature,
or their business minds mature,
they expand and are then called sell outs.

Face it starving for art ain't the best idea,
contrasted with making art AND ALSO making a good living,
doing something you like.

[Joe Drivdahl]

David,
Did you read my post?

I don't want to classify these people as "sell outs" because they are some of the best musicians in the world.

I purposely tried NOT to call Stuart and Jerry sell outs. They are two of my favorite musicians ever!. But they work for big music.

I was responding to Dave's idea that a grassroots campaign can be formed to foster traditional country music. I agree it probably can, but if it catches on, then there will be stars immerge from the ranks. Big music will take notice and pick these people up. Then they'll be on CMT playing this same crappy stuff we hear on the radio today. They WILL sell out. Wouldn't you?

But I will not many young bluegrass players
came in as 'family bluegrass players',
And later when their musical minds mature
or their business minds mature,
they expand and are called sell outs.

Muture? From bluegrass? Bluegrass is difficult music to play. Much more so than most country. So they expand musically from bluegrass to crap? Yeah that makes sense. Call it "expansion" if you wish, but when you begin to teeter into enemy territory then expansion becomes treason.

All of this of course is my opinion only.

Joe

[David L. Donald]

Yes I did see that,
it was the fans that are the un-buyable types.
I was expanding on that idea and contrasting it
with the advancing musicians.

The idea that Allison will stop doing
bluegrass albums seems pretty slim.

Joe I play bluegrass on 4 instruments
Mando, guitar, bass, Dobro.
I also play bebop; Mando and bass
I also play Bulgarian folk, mando, guitar, bass
and irish/celtic music. mando, guitar, bass,

Please believe me when I say
there is no comparison in the difficulty
between bluegrass fast picking and hard bop.

Bluegrass, while needing good chops,
stays within a very narrow harmonic framework
Bop and other jazzs go over changes most blugrass players
don't even hear let alone practice over.
Apples and oranges. I work in both worlds.

Usually the great players are brought into a
new country act to make it BETTER music,
not dumb down the better players.
Usually these guys and gals are studio
musicians of a high order, they work for hire.

And this is a hired gig for the TV and such,
they usually get to do a shown solo and
they usually bring the music UP a notch or two.

If by their efforts they make 'modern country' a notch better,
by raising the level of musicianship,
then this should be considered a GOOD THING.
Instead they are looked down on...

[Joe Drivdahl]

David,
Did I say Alison would stop doing bluegrass albums? I don't think I did. If I did, I didn't mean to. But come to think of it, has she done a bluegrass album lately?

IMO the song she did with Robert Plant is complete commercial sellout crap. There's no music in it. I would never consider wasting my hard-earned money on that album... Ever!

But its not because its not bluegrass. As I've said countless times, I am not tied to genre. If a song fits my idea of good then I'll probably like it.

My idea of good:
1. The song has a melody
2. Drums and bass in the background
3. Lead instruments: guitar, fiddle, steel
4. Good, strong, quality, emotional lead vocal
5. Good, strong harmony vocals
6. Lead breaks that complement the melody, not just a cascade of notes played at breakneck speed that completely lack any kind of feeling
7. Twin lead breaks occasionally - played with the same kind of feeling as above

If a song has some or most of that, its probably a good song. If it has none, then its crap.

The song Alison did with James Taylor, had most of these qualities especially the vocals. The song she did with Plant had very few if any of these qualities.

So please stop saying that I am offended if someone "jumps" genres. That is simply not true. We are talking about a grassroots effort to revive traditional country music. So if I seem tied to a genre in this thread, thats why.

But I am pretty tied to my criteria list and I can usually tell within 5 seconds if a song will fit it or not.

Joe

[Dave Mudgett]

Joe - I saw your clarification, but I think you're still treading close to the "sell-out" argument. I see what Allison, Stuart, and Jerry are doing as a very natural extension of what they were doing before.

For example - the first I ever heard Jerry Douglas was in J.D. Crowe's band with Ricky Skaggs and Tony Rice, and then playing with Tony in a Newgrass configuration. Jerry Douglas' music is just Jerry Douglas' music - same with Ricky and Tony for that matter. Same with Rhonda. Over the course of decades, regardless of configuration, I can recognize them instantly - no sell out, not one iota.

Becoming successful in a commercial sense does not, by itself, imply selling out. Emmylou Harris is another great example. Yes, she became very commercially successful, but absolutely never sold out, to my mind. When country music moved a different way, she went her own way and continues to make great music - of course, you aren't likely to hear it on country radio, to say the least.

But there are lots of other musicians who aren't household names who haven't sold out either. They play music that suits them - a few hit it big, but many other worthy ones don't.

On that grassroots country music organization stuff - to me, the issue is to coalesce good musicians with strong musical identity. Sure, if there's a resurgence in that style, "big music" will probably snap some of them up - and probably spit them out when the ride is over. No problem - the ones with integrity will maintain their identity through it all. But to me, the point is to have a "home" for older styles of country music that have fallen out of favor.

Back to the subject of this thread - sometimes a rude awakening can turn me on to something I didn't understand or couldn't do earlier. I think most musicians need to grow. I sure need to, and it doesn't always mesh with what others want.

When I turned to pedal steel several years back, musical colleagues and fans who associated me with blues, rockabilly, jazz, bluegrass, surf-twang, and other guitar stuff wondered if I had lost my mind. When I brought a steel to my rockabilly gig for a few tunes, people were going up to the lead singer and asking "Hey, are the Chrome Magnatones really turning into a country band? What's going on? Is Mudgett really gonna play that whiney pedal steel?"

Was I selling out? Hell no - I was just following my muse. The rude awakening of rockabilly hardheads helped push me in the direction that I wanted to go anyway. They didn't do anything wrong - they just honestly expressed their opinion - "We want you to just bring your old Gretsch and rock out, man. Get rid of that whiney pedal steel." I got about the same reaction from the other units I was with.

Suffice to say, I moved away from the rockabilly band, which I had started and led since the early 90s. Pretty much the same with the other units too. I have never regretted it for one minute, and am still friends with most of these people. But I had to move on. That may happen again - I'm gonna do what I think is right for me regardless of what the gallery says.

So - I don't think rude awakenings are all bad. If you want to be reactionary, well that's a choice. But if you want to evolve, that's another choice. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Call it "expansion" if you wish, but when you begin to teeter into enemy territory then expansion becomes treason.

Ha! That's funny - I had people call me a "traitor" when I started playing country music on the steel. I guess they didn't know that I played country music on guitar for a long time - in fact, they didn't realize that half the tunes we were doing in the rockabilly band were just revved up country tunes. I guess it's about whose ox is being gored, eh?

[Joe Drivdahl]

Dave,
I agree with every bit of that except, I did not say that Stuart and Jerry sold out. They are great players and as such get called for a lot of studio jobs. I have no problem with that. I wish it was me at least once or twice in my life.

We all evolve as musicians. If that causes us to deviate into other areas, so be it. As long as its not commercially motivated, its not selling out. However, Alison has journeyed into a direction that is backward for her. She's playing way beneath herself IMO. If she wanted to expand, then why not something more musical rather than less?

Would I be expanding if I suddenly decided to start playing only two chord songs? Why would I do that if not for money? I have no desire to regress musically and I can't imagine anyone who does. Like you, I need to expand where I can, but I don't think teaming up with an old rocker and playing something that is almost bubble-gummer its so commercial is the way to do it.

Joe

[Dave Mudgett]

Joe - I got that. My point is that the line between "artistic purity" and "sellout" can be pretty blurry and even quite subjective. If someone doesn't see the thread connecting various approaches a musician takes, they may well miss that connection and reach a false conclusion about the motivation.

On evolution - to me, musical complexity is not the only factor in a musician's evolution. Not all great music is harmonically complex, for example. Along with other styles, I play blues. I sometimes play droning one-chord blues tunes - this is harder to do well than one might imagine. I don't think it's a good idea to apply standards of Western music harmony to everything, and the number of chords or complexity do not dictate a song's quality - to me, at least.

BTW - I liked the Krause/Plant collaboration. It's not bluegrass or country music, but has a stark beauty to it - to me. I also can see the thread in the musical life of each of them that led them there.

[David L. Donald]

David,
Did I say Alison would stop doing bluegrass albums?

IMO the song she did with Robert Plant is complete commercial sellout crap. There's no music in it. I would never consider wasting my hard-earned money on that album... Ever!

My idea of good:
1. The song has a melody
2. Drums and bass in the background
3. Lead instruments: guitar, fiddle, steel
4. Good, strong, quality, emotional lead vocal
5. Good, strong harmony vocals
6. Lead breaks that complement the melody, not just a cascade of notes played at breakneck speed that completely lack any kind of feeling
7. Twin lead breaks occasionally - played with the same kind of feeling as above

If a song has some or most of that, its probably a good song. If it has none, then its crap.


But I am pretty tied to my criteria list and I can usually tell within 5 seconds if a song will fit it or not.

Joe

Joe In order.

I saw this said earlier, some one said she hasn't done a bluegrass album in awhile,
and it is now gone, no clue why, or I just didn't see it while looking.

Your list describes PERFECTLY 3-4 of the songs on the Plant/ Kraus album. I mean EXACTLY fitting this description.
To a T. Or a T-Bone Burnett to be exact.

Not ever song, but several and done correctly for their genres.
Not JUST one genre but a few tied together logicaly.

So by your logic they have several tunes that are NOT crap.
But you won't believe that.

And since you won't listen to anything past the one
pop piece that was widely marketed you will never discover the other gems inside.

[Theresa Galbraith]

I think Ronda has a country cd out.
I saw her video on CMT recently.

[Mark Edwards]

This forum is filled with hardworking (some retired) that love or hobby around (or make a living) with our beloved steel guitar and I'm sure some with nothing better to do than sit around and check out the newest updated words in the dictionary/thesaurus and then attempt to ejaculate verbosity by dressing it up nicely putting a bow on it and calling it a thread related to steel guitar.

When I became a member a few years back this forum was about the old schoolers relating their experiences to the newer folks a thing or two about playing, tuning, amp settings etc... Or just chatting in non-threating, non-obtrusive language that promotes camaraderie, brother/sisterhood and generally a great place to come and read/listen to those that have been there done that.

This is not a place of "one up man ship" where we have to show that mine is bigger than yours. It amazes me how grown men seem to want to belittle our forum by schoolyard shenanigans. I would hope that we can maintain civil stewardship and remain a place where we can promote the steel guitar and "MUSIC" regardless of what type of music it is to a new generation or to those that have just discovered the steel. I love our community and have met some really great/nice folks that have been gracious enough to allow me to learn more about the steel guitar.