Re: Emmons Counterforce Units

Richard Stanton · Post by **Richard Stanton** » 19 Mar 2008 2:59 am

I have an Emmons Lashley LeGrande II and am considering fitting counterforce units to both necks. Is there anyone out there who has done this and if so what did they think of the end results. Was it worth the additional costs involved and how did it effect the pedal action, plus was it difficult to fit the units?

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 19 Mar 2008 3:51 am

I have several friends who took them off.

Larry Behm

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 19 Mar 2008 5:41 am

Richard, when I had a LeGrande II I asked Ron Jr. how much it would cost to upgrade to the III. The price he quoted me was the price of a new guitar! He said it would be too much trouble to rework. Take that for what it's worth.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 Mar 2008 7:47 am

Save your money and effort, Most pros prefer the LeGrande II.

Like Larry said, more folks take them off than put them on.

Richard Stanton · Post by **Richard Stanton** » 19 Mar 2008 12:25 pm

Thank you to all who replied to my question. I shall take your advice and save my money.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 Mar 2008 12:51 pm

Just curious why people take them off? I've always heard they worked as advertised.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Mar 2008 12:57 pm

David

I don't know if they're hype or not, to be honest. I read some positive things about them and ordered one on my 2000 D-10. Now I'll never know if the cabinet-drop on my guitar was bad enough to warrant the extra $275 (not to mention the weight!)or not.

Anyway - I'm freely admitting that I was swayed by the publicity....

I have heard it said that they make the guitar a touch heavier to play, but I have no complaints!

Rob Segal · Post by **Rob Segal** » 19 Mar 2008 3:51 pm

One pro who liked the counter-force unit was Mr. Emmons.

In order to determine what the mechanism contributes, simply back off its adjusters so that it does not activate and measure your cabinet drop.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Mar 2008 7:44 am

The only comment I can recall that Buddy ever made about it was something on the order of "It does what it's designed to do".

I don't exactly consider that a "glowing" recommendation.

Others, however, may see it differently.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Mar 2008 8:16 am

I guess it does 'do what it's supposed to do'.

The question is, does it need doing in the first place?

I have an open mind at present (on this matter - nothing else, though

). My $275 has long gone, so it's academic to me now.

Mine IS a great guitar, though....

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 20 Mar 2008 7:06 pm

I like em on the E9. I have no need for one on the C6th. Richard, if the cabinet drop bothers you? You need a counterforce.If not? You don't.

You'll come out much better just to sell the LII and buy an LIII..

Roger, it takes maybe 3 mins to back the tension off the counterforce. Again, if you can't hear it you don't need it.Also, if you're using say Jeff Newman's guide to tune by. The counterforce is working against you. Newman's guide is designed for guitars with cabinet drop,,,,,,bb

Richard Argus · Post by **Richard Argus** » 20 Mar 2008 8:17 pm

Bobby,
Further to your comment, what tuning chart (if any) would you recommend for a LG III?

Thanks,
Richard

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 20 Mar 2008 9:13 pm

I really like the LeGrande III anti-detuner because I can tune it straight up 440 with exception of tuning all the 3rd intervals very slightly flat and the guitar plays in perfect tune. No need for any chart, just tune everything straight up, slightly flatten the edge off of the Ab strings and the E to F raises, C# on 5 and 10 with pedals down and the E's on C6th and any other 3rd interval that results from use of a pull or pulls.
I have an extremely clean '94 LeGrande II that I would trade for the right LeGrande III with the anti-detuner on both necks. I really would rather have it on both necks so I don't have to be concerned with tuning E9th straight 440 and the C6th somewhat tempered.
Jerry

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 20 Mar 2008 9:20 pm

Richard,Different strokes for different folks.What works best for me.I tune everything straight up except the 3rds. No pedals, 5 cents flat.Pedals down 10 cents flat. E to F knee 10 cents flat...b

Richard Argus · Post by **Richard Argus** » 20 Mar 2008 9:40 pm

Jerry, Bobby,
Thanks.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Mar 2008 8:39 am

There is also "cabinet rise" when one uses a lever or pedal that lowers. Does the counterforce device deal with that?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Mar 2008 9:22 am

Bobby B.,

I'm sure that my counterforce unit is properly adjusted - Dave Robbins recently did a fine job of going through my guitar and taking care of a few issues that have arisen in the eight years I've had it. He naturally checked that, too.

My point was that the guitar MAY have been inherently stable when it was first built, even if I hadn't opted for the E9 counterforce unit. But I was buying my 'ideal' guitar, and I wasn't going to skimp on anything for a few dollars, even though I was unsure of what the unit did, or how it did it!

Believe me, if there were any significant 'drop', I'd hear it; surely not every Emmons built has identical characteristics, and some must be more prone to cabinet drop than others?

The only point I was trying to make (obviously unsuccessfully!) was that it is possible that my guitar just MIGHT have been just as stable with or without the unit. The only way to find out is to 'back off' the unit, and I don't propose to do that after all Dave's hard work!

These days I tune 'straight up' to 440 - it was hard at first, as my ears have become attuned after years of flattened thirds. Now I'm in tune with a whole ten-piece orchestra (in the pit, doing 'Cabaret'); I have a feeling that, in my tempered days, I'd have been struggling!

Bill OConnor · Post by **Bill OConnor** » 21 Mar 2008 11:08 pm

I have a Emmons ..LG 111 YOU CAN SET YOUR STROBE ON 440 PUSH AB PEDALS PICK THE E STRING IT DOES NOT MOVE OFF 440 AND I HAVE NOT HAD TO ADJUST IT IN 5 YEARS Its good for me.

Darrell Owens · Post by **Darrell Owens** » 23 Mar 2008 7:10 pm

When you consider the cost of a new Emmons LeGrande, $275. is a relatively small amount for having the counterforce unit. However, to have them installed after the fact is probably not worth the cost. I think it is more noticable on the E-9th neck than the C-6th due to the difference in the tone ranges and the style of playing.

After years of trying to compensate for cabinet drop on my "other" guitar, I am quite happy with my Emmons LeGrande III.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 23 Mar 2008 7:49 pm

what...doesn't a c6 neck have to be in tune?

Darrell Owens · Post by **Darrell Owens** » 23 Mar 2008 8:28 pm

Chris, I did not mean to imply that the C6th neck did not need to be in tune. I prefer the Compensator on both necks. that is why I play a LaGrande III. My response to the thread was regarding the cost of the compensator and whether it was cost effective to add it to the guitar after the fact. I have had two guitars built by Ron Lashley in the past three years. His advice to me was if you are going to choose between the E9th and C6th neck, the E9th will be more effected by the compensator. Cabinet drop seems to effect the E9th tuning more than it does the C-6th tuning. At least, we tend to hear it more distinctly. I'll leave it for others to explain why (and if) that is true. My comment was perhaps the harmonics and sustained notes played on the E9th neck are more pronounced than the Jazz and Swing styles usually played on C-6th.

Sorry if I implied to you that is was okay to be out of tune on C6th. I was only repeating what Ron had advised me regarding the compensator on the C6th neck.

Darrell

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 24 Mar 2008 9:41 am

oh, sorry darrell..thanx!

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 26 Mar 2008 4:57 am

At a little get together of some local steel players, Russ Hicks sat at my steel and hit a few string and pedals and said "That really does work". That was all I needed to hear as it was an unsolicited comment. Don

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 30 Mar 2008 4:12 pm

Boy, I hate it when the dancers all leave the dance floor because of the cabinet drop on the steel.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 30 Mar 2008 6:01 pm

Jerry Roller wrote:.....I tune it straight up 440 with exception of tuning all the 3rd intervals very slightly flat.....No need for any chart, just tune everything straight up, slightly flatten the edge off of the Ab strings and the E to F raises, C# on 5 and 10 with pedals down and the E's on C6th.

Exactly !

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