He's back.....

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 9 Mar 2008 9:33 am

Most knowledgeable PSG players can play most any style of music well. However when it comes to Rock , Blues and Jazz I have not heard a PSG player who could come close to the greatness of the elite standard guitar 6 stringers of the past. This is not for the lack of ability but simply a case of they don’t wish to or don’t need to pursue it to the point of greatness.

Those same Rock, Blues and Jazz guitarists styles have now become the norm in country music.

The opposite is not true for the PSG as presently played and generally has not been accepted in other styles of music.
Until someone comes up with a PSG style that can become the norm in Rock, Blues and Jazz we are pretty much stuck in the country field.

Pity the man who tries. It doesn’t appear that he’s going to get much encouragement.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Mar 2008 9:48 am

Remember the 1958 movie "The Blob," where the alien lifeform comes to Earth and absorbs everything in its path?

One thing about rock music is its universality... it meets a particular style of music, adds bass and drums, and absorbs it. Usually to the dismay of the fans and purists of whatever style is being usurped.

Witness: country-rock, blues-rock, folk-rock, jazz-rock fusion, raga-rock, classical-rock*, et al.

We've yet to see Dixieland-rock, but I've no doubt it will be an eventuality.

*not to be confused with "classic rock."

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 9 Mar 2008 11:57 am

I'm seeing a lot of great thought going on here,(and not from me),
Herb, very profound,
James, funny, I love it.
Jim, You are a great thinker and definitly "outside the box" (this is good),
Michael, knowing you the way I do, I think there is a lot more going on in you head than you are writing here,
Aw go ahead, let it all hang out,,,,,,,

This thread has me really thinking, opening my mind possibly, Yes, I hate the sound of fuzz comming at me in commercials, off the bandstand, weather channel, yes, coming at me 24 hours a day from every direction. To me, fuzz says nothing, it's only noise.
But soften it, round off that sawtooth sine wave add some overtones and you have something like a sax tone, or any reed instrument.. (carful, accordian and harmonica also reside here)
Now, the public, and most everyone loves sax, (yes, I spelled it right), so why not work on the tone of this horrible raspy, cutting, painfull, irratating fuzz tone and make it sound more like Boots, Kenny G. or Ace Cannon, again, just like I have always screamed, tone is everything, even with fuzz.

Any thoughts along this line?

bobbe

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 9 Mar 2008 12:02 pm

Bobbe, I agree. I very seldom hear steel guitar with fuzz that I like. I like the playing, but not the sound. Always seems too thin and high-endy to me. I've mentioned that I've had my best luck with an ancient Rat pedal, cuz it's tone control seems to work fairly well with steel. The thin sound has somethin' to do with the pickups.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 9 Mar 2008 12:33 pm

Jim, thanks. Respect mutual. Always enjoy your perspective.

Bobbe...

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Mar 2008 2:04 pm

Thanks Mike.

Bobbe - I'll have to dig up some things for you to hear over the next week or so. It's apparent you've been subjected to the worst of "non-clean" tones, and haven't heard the rich-sounding, clear, articulated stuff that emulates the sax sounds you're hearing in your head (along with those little voices...)

One clue is your use of the term "fuzz" for everything that's distorted; that's a terrible misnomer, as (although the lines have become blurred by some consumer-grade effects producers, unfortunately) "fuzz" is one effect; "distortion" is significantly different; and "overdrive" is an effect that has NO specific sound, as in it's pure form it's a signal-increasing device that may...or may not...create distortion (many overdrives have subtle...or not so subtle...distortion circuits built in, which is one of the "blurry" lines - but many do not).

If what you have heard is primarily "fuzz" - and I will use the Steeldriver II (I own one) as an example, I can see where perception comes from, as those types of units are one-trick ponies - they create a raspy, noisy, treble-enhanced "angry bees in a bucket" sound that is reminiscent of the worst of 60's "fuzztone" effects.

The weird thing is, I find so many steel players using units that are fuzz-generating devices and complaining about the sound, while 6-stringers rarely use fuzz these days, and instead may use a distortion device, but more likely (among experienced players) they'll use an overdrive in combination with a tube amp running right on the edge of distortion - used correctly, you can run clean or get a smooth, "singing" distorted tone (Eric Clapton's typical such sound is called "woman tone") just by subtly adjusting the volume and tone controls of the guitar.

A couple of things that come to mind are various things Larry Carlton played with Steely Dan; Also specifically "My Old School" is a Steely Dan song with Skunk Baxter on lead guitar - the solo and fills are very staccato and controlled, and maybe have a bit more treble than the best of what I'm describing, but when the horns come in he literally becomes *part* of the horn section and it's hard for the uneducated ear to play "find the guitar" amongst the saxes!

The lack of hand-available controls is a glaring weakness in most steel guitars IF they will be used for overdriven styles, with the lack of volume and tone controls and the circuit that goes with them it's very, very hard to get a smooth overdriven sound, as you "drive" the sound from the guitar controls. The typical steel volume pedal really fouls the whole thing up - the best layout for both clean steel and smooth overdriven tones would be a volume pedal that would be left wide-open when playing using overdriven tones, and both a volume and tone control ON the guitar that can be reached with the pinky of the right hand - combined with a tube amp turned up nearly all the way (depending on tubes and bias settings). Often it also will involve an impedance matching device, as the high-impedance pedal steel pickups usually react quite poorly with guitar effects...another reason effects often sound bad with steel and players give up on them. Even a simple guitar phase device turns into a phase/fuzz with 22k steel pickups.

That's the direction you go to get the smooth, "sax" tones. It's actually not hard, it just takes thinking "guitar equipment" and also NOT playing like a normal pedal steel player. The old Fender cable guitars are physically and electronically set up perfectly - controls at the right hand, and pickups around 9k. When I play my GFI, I'm lacking the volume and tone controls (something I'm working on) but the pickups are only wound to around 14k and work fairly well with most effects, although older MXR boxes require an impedance matcher. It takes creative use of the volume pedal in a completely different manner than "normal" steel playing to "massage" the overdriven sounds with that type of setup, but it CAN be done.

That's just a kind of "summary" of a very complicated, deep, "how to do it" method of getting smooth distorted sounds on pedal steel. One last note - nearly all of the popular "fuzz", "distortion" and "overdrive" units you find at the local music store, Guitar Center, Sam Ash, etc are NOT what guitar players who are getting the best sounds are using, and they are the least adaptable to pedal steel in my experience. It takes some work and finding places like vintage guitar stores that carry boutique effects to find the REALLY good stuff...and REALLY good stuff isn't cheap (my primary overdrive units...I use two different ones...run about $400 each). There are some exceptions, but with effects you really do get what you pay for, and for example if you really WANT "fuzz" there's a staggering difference in tone between a $60 DOD fuzz and a $250 ZVex Fuzz Factory.

There's no way to really complete this post...the subject is far too complicated. But again, it takes thinking WAY outside the steel "box" and adapting other equipment...plus a lot of experimenting.

Hope that helps.

Jim

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Mar 2008 2:28 pm

So I take it that my recent investment in a Jordan Boss Tone plugged into a Session 500 will not make me into the hillbilly B.B. King... where did I leave my drawing board??

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 9 Mar 2008 2:34 pm

If you ask me (not that anyone did), the problem with the guy on the video is his phrasing. He plays a pickup to a long tone on "1" on practically every bar (da da Dah-----, da da Dah----). Also, he could do more with his right hand to vary his tone - he does at around 1:23 which sounds nice but then he doesn't do it again. A bit more attention to stuff like that and a band behind him & he'd have a smokin' solo.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 9 Mar 2008 6:22 pm

Larry Robertson · Post by **Larry Robertson** » 9 Mar 2008 7:49 pm

What are you guys gonna do when your hear Robert Randolph & the Randolph Family?

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Mar 2008 7:57 pm

Steel his licks.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 10 Mar 2008 7:04 am

Maybe that isn't the most developed solo I've ever heard, but the main gist is good.......I just might try and work out an SRV or Albert King tune.

My problem with overdrive is that putting a lot of effects in my signal chain, whether true Bypass or buffered, changes the basic tone....usually for the worse.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Mar 2008 7:24 am

Tony, get yourself a Boss LS-1. It's very transparent, and it allows you to put your effects in a loop that you can switch out of the signal path. Actually will do two loops, and a bunch of other stuff.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 10 Mar 2008 9:24 am

" Any thoughts along this line? "

This thread has gone on waayyy too long. $:\$

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 10 Mar 2008 9:48 am

Larry Robertson
Been there, done that...

Bobbe, I have never "fuzzed up" my steel. My son thought I should try playing through his Crate and dirty it up, but we've never done it. No real reason why, just haven't, but I like your idea of getting a Saxaphone sound. Do you think its possible without some expensive processor equipment?

Joe

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 10 Mar 2008 10:15 am

John Billings wrote:Tony, get yourself a Boss LS-1. It's very transparent, and it allows you to put your effects in a loop that you can switch out of the signal path. Actually will do two loops, and a bunch of other stuff.

John, Thanks but I've already had and sold an LS1, during my guitar tone quest daze. They are not "true bypass" wired and use a buffer. I heard a definite attenuation of highs, that was not easily compensated w/ amp tweaking......even when it was disengaged. I do have an SMF Green Line OD unit that I may try. I also have a star ABY line switcher that is true bypass. I just need to pull them off my guitar pedalboard.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Mar 2008 10:27 am

Tony, of course I meant the LS 2. But I just called Boss, and you're right, no Boss pedals have "true bypass." I hadn't noticed a loss of high-end with my Twin. But I fiddle with the eq all the time.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Mar 2008 11:14 am

seems to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) that some are saying ONLY harmoninzed runs are acceptable on a psg??...everything else should be played on a lap steel or a saxophone or something???

I honestly just dont understand the old school...

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 10 Mar 2008 11:35 am

Ben, define "harmoninzed."

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Mar 2008 11:39 am

Give him a break Barry! He just mahnippolated the spelllining!

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Mar 2008 11:55 am

ah.... the spelling police have arrived. Twas a typo gentlemen. Question remains, must everything be HARMONIZED, or be played on an instrument other than psg? "you could play that on a kazoo, why not play it on a kazoo?? Pedal steel guitar is for making THIS kind of noise and not to be used for making THAT kind of noise!!"

I love the old country stylins, respect the wisdom and talent of its players...I just dont get the aversion to anything non-trad. So whats the verdict? If i wanna play the occasional non-harmonized stuff to express an idea do i need to get up from the steel and find a saxophone?

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 10 Mar 2008 12:22 pm

Yes, Ben. You do. And don't forget to put your shades on before you grab that saxy axe.

I am a newby pretty much. Just been playing since I gave up that dern devil's box about 5 years ago, but I actually find myself playing more single note stuff now than I did when I was starting out. I don't know why. I didn't even think about it until I saw the comments on this thread.

I think what Bobbe and others are refering to is akin to the newby lead man who plays all his lead notes on one string, up and down the neck. Ever seen that?

At least that's my take. Who knows?

Joe

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Mar 2008 12:45 pm

I think what Bobbe and others are refering to is akin to the newby lead man who plays all his lead notes on one string, up and down the neck. Ever seen that?

maybe, but I see the same thing often said about RR and he is no newb..."he could do that on a lap steel or a strat, why oh why doesnt he do that on a lap steel or a strat and not my precious pedal steel guitar which is clearly meant for ONLY harmonized non-effect ladden (unless its reverb or delay)riffing???"

Oddly enough, I am most attracted to the non-fuzzed out harmonized trad sound of a psg...but I fail to see why the psg cannot be used to make ANY sound the player wishes to make in order to express their musical ideas and so often, I find myself championing/defending this kind of playing even tho its not really my main interest or cup of tea or regardles of wether i like the music in question.

what I would like to hear is someone combining both the harmonized stuff and lotsa pedal movement WITH the non-harmonized rocking stuff. wouldnt that be dynamic and exciting? Perhaps since no one seems to do it, it is not something that is possible, or perhaps it just doesnt "work" that way..I am too inexperienced a player to know....YET....but i aim to find out some day.

Bobbe...fuzz can be sweeter than any birds song and more beautiful than any crystal clear bell like chime. warm wooley waves of HUGE fuzz washing over me, transporting me to other worlds, a smooth forceful liquid expression of cosmic power...maybe thats just my ear and whats its been raised on. I'll never like scotch...good scotch, bad scotch, all horrible to me. To others...ambrosia

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 10 Mar 2008 1:12 pm

Ben Jones wrote:ah.... the spelling police have arrived. Twas a typo gentlemen. Question remains, must everything be HARMONIZED, or be played on an instrument other than psg? "you could play that on a kazoo, why not play it on a kazoo?? Pedal steel guitar is for making THIS kind of noise and not to be used for making THAT kind of noise!!"

I love the old country stylins, respect the wisdom and talent of its players...I just dont get the aversion to anything non-trad. So whats the verdict? If i wanna play the occasional non-harmonized stuff to express an idea do i need to get up from the steel and find a saxophone?

Ben, Your are limited by your imagination only. You may play whatever style of music you want, however you want, and with whatever effects you enjoy. You have my permission.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Mar 2008 1:42 pm

James Morehead wrote: Ben, Your are limited by your imagination only. You may play whatever style of music you want, however you want, and with whatever effects you enjoy. You have my permission.

I afraid im going to need that in writing James in case anyone questions me and asks to see my hall pass.