what's the advantage of push/pull

[Mike Benzschawel]

hey guys, i'm new to steel and i've heard talk of a pedal steel that's a "push, pull" such as an emmons or something like that. i was wondering what the advantage of this setup is, and/or why it's desirable. thanks, mike b

[b0b]

Most will say "tone". The Emmons push-pull guitars had that gorgeous, classic pedal steel sound.

Mechanically, there's an odd quirk in that, when a string is both raised and lowered, the raise wins. You can, for example lower your E strings and press pedals 2 and 3 to get a B9th chord with F# on the 4th string. I always thought that was very cool.

They are hard to work on, though, especially if your copedent is complex. And they are heavy.

[Mike Benzschawel]

hey bob, is the push/pull a different mechanical setup, or just a description of a certain make of emmons steels? for comparison, i'm just learning on a carter starter, does that have different mechanics than a push/pull? probably should clarify my questions....

[richard burton]

The only advantages that a push-pull has are disadvantages.

They can't compete mechanically with an all-pull steel.

Apparently, a push-pull has a sonic advantage.

Some do, most don't.

[b0b]

hey bob, is the push/pull a different mechanical setup, or just a description of a certain make of emmons steels? for comparison, i'm just learning on a carter starter, does that have different mechanics than a push/pull? probably should clarify my questions....

Yes, it is quite different mechanically from any other kind of steel guitar. Emmons stopped making the push-pull models in the mid 1980's, though I've heard that a few more have been made recently. Promat builds a clone of the original Emmons design, and there are a few other small shops that have built push-pulls.

[Mike Benzschawel]

hmmm....interesting. thanks for answering my question fellas.

ps the forum rules.

[Damir Besic]

btw...this forum is the only place on the whole planet where Promat updates their info`s, orders , news, models info etc...Promat has no other advertising methods other than word of mouth or here on Steel Guitar Forum.Other than Promat website this is it.And their web site is pretty much made by and for players and members of SGF.

Db

[Pit Lenz]

Hello Mike,

if you Click here you will find a very good diagram explaining a push/pull bridge.
There´s even further links to an animated view!

Here you have the diagram of a modern all pull mechanic. Again with some animations.
Couldn´t be clearer!

Hope this helps
pit

[Mike Benzschawel]

man...thanks for the info guys, very helpful, especially the diagram. now i understand! and that's no small feat....

[Mike Benzschawel]

now i'm gonna go watch curly chalker play the tennessee waltz on youtube!

[Damir Besic]

now, that sounds like a plan

Db

[Ron !]

what's the advantage of push/pull

Like Richard...I to have to say...besides the tone?....none.

Ron

[Scott Hiestand]

The only advantages that a push-pull has are disadvantages.

I'm not exactly sure what Richard means here.

They can't compete mechanically with an all-pull steel.

You will get a lot of PP proponets that disagree with this. BTW, I have no "axe to grind" here, I currently own no PP's (although I have). If Richard means all-pulls are easier to work on as a general rule, then yes. But if he means they are mechanically "inferior", or don't stay in tune as well, etc., then I would disagree, that simply isn't true. Once a PP is set-up properly, it can go toe-to-toe and then some with any all-pull guitar as far as needed adjustments.

Apparently, a push-pull has a sonic advantage.

Some do, most don't.

Sonic advantage , or "tone", is subjective. But you won't find many folks here or anywhere else who claim all-pulls sound superior to PP's. Most (but not all) players play all-pulls over PP's for reasons other than tone (availibility, parts, easier to adjust, weight, etc). Again...I have no real dog in this fight...these are just accepted truisms by most of the steel guitar community.

[richard burton]

Scott,
I should have elaborated on the statement
'They can't compete mechanically with an all-pull steel'

What I meant was that the playing action of a PP is compromised by the fact that excess travel must be built in to the pulling train, to allow a string to lower.
All-pulls don't have this quirk, hence they have a shorter pedal/lever throw (especially on the C pedal)

You are correct in saying that once a push-pull is set up , it will hold its tuning forever

I should know, I been playing the same PP for 20 years

When I'm not playing my favorite steel (my ZB in the avatar) that is

[Charles Curtis]

IMO, the Emmons PP guitars seem to sell real well here on the Forum.

[Clyde Mattocks]

Yes, a p/p will sell immediately here on the forum, but you have two factors at work. One is they are sought after for their unique tone, but two, there
is a "vintage" thing in play. They are collectable.
I don't want to use the term "antique" in a negative way, but simply as an an investment, you can't go wrong.

[Herb Steiner]

Just some comments...

Some slack is necessary in an all-pull guitar, just not as much as on a push-pull. If a string is not being lowered, very little slack is needed on a PP either. But there must be some slack in either changer linkages or else there would be no adjustment available for tuning. The changer fingers must, in either design, be allowed to return to the zero or neutral position.

In fact, many players find that the action of modern all-pull guitars plays too fast, in that if a pedal is even touched, the string will start to change. So you must have your left foot COMPLETELY off the pedal or your intonation is screwed. Therefore the slack in a PP is actually advantageous in that situation.

The slightly longer pedal throw... and this can be adjusted... of the PP also allows for more player expression with moving notes. On a super fast guitar the note is either "on" or "off."

But yes, the sound is the main attraction. If it were not, the majority of the steel builders, including Bruce Zumsteg who makes one of the most sought-after/long waiting-list, steels, would not be saying they are shooting for the "PP sound." Likewise, George L would not have named his best pickup the "E-66."

And one more thing... if you see an Emmons Original (PP) on the stage, without hearing the player, the thought crosses the mind "at least this guy knows what guitar to bring to his gig." That in itself is worth something.

[Scott Hiestand]

I should know, I been playing the same PP for 20 years

When I'm not playing my favorite steel (my ZB in the avatar) that is

Richard....you are way ahead of me in PP knowledge, and I guess I did misinterpret your explanantion a bit.

And since I play a ZB too, maybe we can both agree that the often quoted claim that PP's are superior to "all" all-pulls in tone is in serious question!

[chris ivey]

herb beat me to it! the length of the pull on a p/p, which as he noted can be kept quite in check, does create a certain elongated twangy feel which, in the foot of an artist can be very special.
i have two d10 p/p's which i love. i generally take my old zum to the gig because it is lighter, easier to tune quickly, and sounds great with my old emmons pickups on it. i actually reset some of the zum pulls to have a longer pedal travel on them.

edited to note that zb's also have a beautiful special inherent tone, due to the whole physical makeup of the guitar. neither is better...they're all cool!

[Michael Pierce]

I just returned from having my 1978 P/P adjusted by Tommy Cass, one of the most knowledgeable guys around who works on these. As he said to me earlier today, "too bad these things sound so good, because they're a *&^%&^@* to work on!"

[Dave Diehl]

Thank you Herb. You are exactly right. Could not have said it any better.