Switching from Push Pull to All Pull

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 4 Mar 2008 3:05 pm

Anyone here made the change and NOT regretted it?

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 4 Mar 2008 3:33 pm

Me. I went from a nice P/P S10 to a nice Sierra keyless session S12. I was honest with myself about what I was giving up and I fully well know that my Sierra will never have "that" sound. The Emmons P/P will probably always be the standard by which all others are judged in terms of tone and someday when I can afford it I will have a stable of guitars including at least one P/P Emmons or even a Promat. I wanted to live with a Sierra (always wanted one ever since Winnie Winston told me about them after he got back from St. Louis - say perhaps 1975?) and I am really enjoying it both mechanically and yes - in terms of tone. It will never sound like a maple body P/P but it does things tone wise that the Emmons does not. It' all about "that sound" and whether or not you can be happy without it. If not don't get rid of that Emmons. If you can't afford two or more your choice should be obvious.

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 4 Mar 2008 4:00 pm

Dave, There are pro's and con's with each, as with everything else in life. I have both PP's and all pulls and depending on the situation, play both equally as much.

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 4 Mar 2008 4:05 pm

I hear ya, I love my old P/P but for some reason, I'm feeling like it's time for a change. I guess I'm looking for someone to either talk me into or out of it LOL.

Thanks
David

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 4 Mar 2008 4:25 pm

I regretted it....till I got my ZB.

That is not to say there isn't another all-pull (besides the ZB) I couldn't be happy with, but it's hard to break loose of that PP sound once you've played one, because you "feel" the notes more, almost like the tone is going through you. That is the only way I can describe it. And the ZB does essentially the same thing, although it has it's own unique sound. Tone-wise, I love them both.

That being said, the more "modern" features of the all-pulls, along with weight, easier copedent changes and adjustments, part availibility, etc. for many folks outweigh this whole "tone" issue, which is subjective anyway. I am like this now with the ZB....I don't want to change for the sake of it, but the older I get, the more I want "easy".

I can't talk you in or out of it, but one recommendation: If you have only played PP's to this point, PLAY whatever all-pull you are thinking of. I made the mistake of not doing that and wound up sellng an essentially brand new guitar. You'll know soon enough if you can make the switch.

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 4 Mar 2008 4:29 pm

I've played 'Buds up until I got my P/P in 2000. The practical side of me says "hell, Buddy doesn't even play them anymore" but I'm sure he still has the blade somewhere. Unfortunately, keeping the P/P and getting something else is not an option. I know of at least one player that has switched to a Zum and never looked back. Fessenden has also got my attention.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 4 Mar 2008 4:49 pm

I have owned three Emmons p/p's and loved the sound, but once I made friends with my first LeGrande (about six months), I never looked back. The ease of the action to me, especially the knee levers, makes up for any real or imagined tonal difference.
You can simply play better on a guitar that is more positive and comfortable. The LeGrandes still have that Emmons sparkle.

For a while, I would switch back and forth on studio dates, but the engineers always preferred the LeGrande with its slightly warmer sound as opposed
to the p/p's bite.

These are just my opinions and I complete respect the opposite view and I understand why some would never play anything but a p/p.

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 4 Mar 2008 9:19 pm

I Have a 1972 D 10 PP. It Sounds Great Stays In Tune. Today I got a 2003 D 10 Zum. It Is The Best Playing Guitar I Have Ever Played.It took Some Knob Turning On My se 200Evans But I Am Gonna try It Thurday on a Gig.Cant Wait.I Have Played It about an hour So Far and Love It.Randy.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 4 Mar 2008 9:41 pm

I would think the added possibilities afforded by an all-pull PSG would far outweigh the Tone obtainable from an outdated P/P Guitar! However, if you're satisfied playing in the styles of the P/P era, then by all means, consider choosing the PSG that has the best sound, in your opinion!

Pete Macomber · Post by **Pete Macomber** » 4 Mar 2008 10:01 pm

What about the idea of playing a push pull for recordings, and going with an all pull for gigs?

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 5 Mar 2008 10:00 am

Well, I reckon I might check into a Zum. I'll let John get his 67 sold or traded over on buy and sell since his was there first before I post an ad.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Mar 2008 10:58 am

My S12 p/p sits in a corner collecting dust. It threw a rod on a gig, and I never found the time to deal with the problem. I moved on to my Zum and MSA unis, and I'm still experimenting with changes. Maybe someday, when I'm done experimenting (will that ever happen?) and have a spare grand, I'll send the p/p to a wizard to see if they can put my copedent on it and make it playable and reliable. Right now it is more important to be able to get a certain change than to have the subtle difference in tone of a p/p. If I played a very standard simple copedent and wasn't interested in experimenting, I might feel different.

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 5 Mar 2008 11:17 am

I think it would be great if everyone with a P/P would sell them for an all pull. The glut of P/P's on the market might just drive the price down to the point where I could afford a second one...

Wayne Wallett · Post by **Wayne Wallett** » 5 Mar 2008 11:23 am

For what it's worth I got rid of my 1970 Emmons push-pull in mid 80's for a LeGrande and have no regrets whatsoever. Since have acquired 2 more all pull guitars (Derby D10 and Sho-Bud Super Pro D10). Like I have said before it's like going back to a 1957 Chevy, very nostalgic and like reliving your teen years but not the best I ever owned. I will say when set up properly and in the right hands the push pulls sound great (Emmons, Mike Johnson, etc.) but would I want one, no especially not for the money they are asking these days ($4000) are you kidding.
Wayne

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 5 Mar 2008 11:23 am

Well, this one won't be going for cheap but it won't be outrageous either. It also has some interesting history and the paperwork to back it up! I'm not going to use that to drive the price up though.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Mar 2008 11:35 am

I don't have any problem going back and forth between both types. But bear in mind two things: first, my PPs are set up perfectly so that their pedal actions aren't that different from my APs; secondly, though I have 7 or 8 knee levers, my copedent doesn't ask anything of my PPs that they can't reasonably do, like split pedal changes.

But for other players, when a copedent calls for multiple changes on one string, it asks a lot of a PP. Universal tunings can be done on a PP, but it's not a simple job to setup and balance out. If a player must have a Uni setup, an AP guitar is most likely the least troublesome choice.

SIDENOTE: The fact that "no major professionals" still play PPs as a reason to not play one is an argument I disagree with. Personally, I don't slavishly follow what my heroes do, I make my own choices based on what I like and want to hear and play. I consider myself a 40 year professional with somewhat of a track record, and I play PP guitars, along with (just in TX, ones that I can think of offhand) Bobby Bowman, Rick Price, Dicky Overbey, Randy Reinhard, Neil Flanz, Don Sowersby, Kenny Grohman, and Jim Loessberg. And I'd say Jay Dee Maness', Cal Sharp's, Bobbe Seymour's, and Sonny Garrish's opinions shouldn't be discounted either.

If you play traditional country music, a PP is a perfectly acceptable guitar.

That said, I like a lot of AP guitars, as well as owning a Fessenden, a Sho~Bud, and a Star. And when in a road gig where I'm gone for days and my equipment is in a trailer or a bus, I take one of my AP guitars for reasons of security. My PPs are all 64-65 wraparounds and are virtually irreplaceable, whereas I can get a great AP guitar by making a phone call and writing a check.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 5 Mar 2008 9:51 pm

I make my own choices based on what I like and want to hear and play.

Me too. Emmons p/p still works for me.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 6 Mar 2008 9:11 am

I have both, and the all-pull is fine. It's no problem going back and forth, but my push-pull has stiffer pedals and longer knee lever throws than my alll-pull, but it's no big deal. Right now I mostly use the all-pull for practice and gigs because it's got some changes I haven't added yet to the push-pull and it's lighter and easier to haul around. I love my all-pull: it sounds pretty good, it's a pleasure to play, and it's easy to adjust and make changes on. However, it doesn't have that sound/feel feedback thing that happens with a push-pull. (To me, the player/guitar feedback of a push-pull is the magic of the push-pull. It is the thing that puts them in a class of their own). Nor does my all-pull sound as good to me as a push-pull: it sounds good and it's got good sonic presence at live stage volume, but it sounds like a modern all-pull guitar (and this is okay!). Although the all-pull design is more versatile and convenient for making changes and doing split tunings, which is a very strong case for going with an all-pull guitar, I think the design, mechanics, and parts are superior on a push-pull. The way the changer fingers interact with the rest of the mechanics, the way the guitar is tuned, the way the componets are more integrated on a push-pull (vs. more discrete on an all-pull), seems to make the push-pull superior both practically and asthetically to me (it holds it tuning!).
I feel pretty blessed to have both guitars. However, if I could only have one I would stay with a push-pull. I do understand though why a lot people have happily gone to all-pulls and not looked back.

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 6 Mar 2008 9:16 am

I will definitely agree with the tuning thing. Mine may drift with temperature changes, but it is always in tune with itself. Example, tuned 'er up at the house, put 'er in the case and she rode in the truck bed 60 miles to an audition last night. Dead in tune when I took 'er out.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 8 Mar 2008 3:47 pm

I love them all, but most of all, I love what I have, what works the best for me (so far) is Promat + Webb 614 + Hilton + George L cables..and that`s it ...simple and most important, killer tone ,JMHO...

Db

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 9 Mar 2008 5:51 am

Yeah, I took the old gal out to an audition the other night. Just the guitar, hilton pedal, and a 75 session with the Sarno mods. TONE. I mean she just sings! I'll just wait another year to gather the fundage to get an all pull and keep baby.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 9 Mar 2008 6:51 am

I've listened to some great players using modern guitars (Rains, Zum, et al) and I gotta say, without wishing to sound immodest, that I prefer the sound I get from my Emmons P/P's. That's the sound I want, that really grabs me, exemplified by some of the clips on my YouTube site, especially "Dreams of A Dreamer" and "I Can't Stop Loving You", recorded with just the mike on the video camera. www.youtube.com/calsharpnashville
(But, damnit, it still doesn't sound as good as Randy Reinhard.

)

If I had a couple grand just lying around I might buy a new guitar just to mess around with, but I really wouldn't expect it to sound as good, at least to my ears. If I ever got rid of my PP's I know I would hate myself in the morning.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Mar 2008 8:24 am

Example, tuned 'er up at the house, put 'er in the case and she rode in the truck bed 60 miles to an audition last night. Dead in tune when I took 'er out.

Not surprising at all. In another thread last year, I discussed at length about an Emmons Original that was stolen from me in 1989, and that I finally retrieved last year after 18 years of separation. It was never in the possession of a steel player in all that time. When I put a new set of strings on the guitar, the 8 pedals and 8 knee levers were still in tune. Now THAT is what I call "keeping its setup."

Cal, your PP sounds great, my man! And it's in such cherry condition!!

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 9 Mar 2008 8:47 am

It wouldn't look this good if it weren't for the chicken wire in some of those Texas beer joints.
And I wouldn't, either.

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 10 Mar 2008 4:24 am

Cal Sharp wrote:If I ever got rid of my PP's I know I would hate myself in the morning.

Cal you are so right! I keep staring at your avatar wondering "is THAT my old one"?

I know you own a few PP's but I hope you are enjoying "old brownie"...I miss her.

BTW I checked out some of your youtube stuff and really enjoyed it. And those Emmons sure sound sweet.

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Switching from Push Pull to All Pull

Switching from Push Pull to All Pull

PUSHPULL

not that a PP needs to be defended, but...