Tone vs. Playability.....always a compromise?

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 26 Feb 2008 6:56 am

OK, I am really going to attempt to ask this question the right way.

Are their folks out there who, after trying/owning a number of brands, one day sat down behind one and said "OK, this is IT, for me". In other words, the guitar “felt right” and sounded right and you never looked back. My steel owning experience (four to date, over 9 years) has always seemed to manifest itself as a “tone vs. mechanics” issue. Tone is purely subjective. But in essence, so are pedal and lever feedback, weight, ease of adjustments/maintenance, scale, height, even string separation distance. It’s all personal choice/taste. Obviously the newer guitars offer many advantages regarding weight, consistency, adding/changing copedents, etc. But I already made the mistake once of buying a new guitar and eventually selling it because I was simply unhappy with the tone, so I certainly don’t want to repeat that. I just sometimes feel that I my progress and ability may be being “held back” some by the purely mechanical “issues” that often seem to go hand-in-hand with owning an older “classic”. (On the other hand....maybe that is just an excuse....).

Living in the NE, I do not have the luxury of being near any steel “dealers”, because obviously being able to sit down and try many brands would go a long way in helping answer this question. The purpose of this thread isn’t to start a “tout your brand” war....but I am curious if others have looked at this problem as I do and if so, what was your “solution”? Or is there one?

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 26 Feb 2008 7:58 am

Scott, A few questions that jump up, "What are you playing and what are you playing it through, and what is it that pleases you for tone?"

What works for me might not work for you.

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 26 Feb 2008 8:08 am

James

As I suspected, I probably muddled the question some.

I currently play a ZB Custom straight through a Nashville 400. My issue now is NOT with tone, I love the sound (and looks) of the ZB and am more than satisfied in that regard, it's the other side of the coin I have some issues with (the weight, "inconsistency" of feel between pedals and knees, they are a bear to work on, etc). Hence the question.

I hope that clears it up a bit.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 26 Feb 2008 8:18 am

Yeah, you should be in tone heaven with your ZB through your Nashville 400. So maybe a split case for the weight. Sounds like if you could feel your stops better, and they were more positive--dead on, you be pleased?

That's how I look at it. I play a '70 Shobud Professional through a twin reverb. I love the tone, and deal with the guitar's weight. The amp is in split cabs(Rick Johnson cabs). But I would not be happy with out the undercarrage(John Coop parts)that I have in that guitar. The stops are perfect and very positive, and that gives a very secure feel when I play. That gives me the TONE and PLAYABILITY in one guitar.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 26 Feb 2008 8:37 am

All through your musical journey your tastes for sound and music will change. I am not talking about weekly, but over time you will enjoy hearing some different tones and playing some different tone generating devices no matter if you play steel or standard guitar or whatever. I just don't think unless you are a monster strong player who makes big bucks getting paid to sound the same all the time that you can really not enjoy trying some new sounds and new instruments to work with the changes that we all make musically over time.

If your ready to confine yourself to one sound and the regimen of one brand of musical device, then you are in some ways limiting yourself to having to stick with that during the times when music and tones around you change, which happens.

I think it is more fun to have some different ones around. Somtimes a new guitar with some different tones will kickstart you into learning some new things. Sometimes an old one will give you a sound that a new one just can't.

Your mileage will vary.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 26 Feb 2008 9:55 am

ZBs sound good, but the do have mechanical issues. There are a lot of great guitars out there, and surely one (or more) will give you the tone you want without the hassles.

This is another reason why you should attend the convention. Every builder will be there with their instruments, and you can try the all and see which one you prefer.

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 26 Feb 2008 10:29 am

Bill

You're absolutely right...sometimes just switching instruments can "jump-start" your motivation and creativity, only problem is my "other half" probably feels I have done enough "jump-starting" for a while!To be perfectly honest, I really don't know if I could ever part with the ZB. But your point is well taken.

Mike, yeah I would love to get there this year, that would help clear things up some for sure.

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 26 Feb 2008 10:40 am

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 26 Feb 2008 11:45 am

Al

It's funny you mention The Legend, I was just on the MSA site yesterday checking them out. NICE looking. Unfortunately, way out of my price range!

I've already talked to Kevin about his split cases. As long as I keep the ZB, one of those (or should I say 2!) is in my future.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 26 Feb 2008 2:56 pm

i'd like to have a d10 steel that sounded like a zb, had beautiful wood and inlay, with a perfectly smooth all-pull modern system that weighed 30 lbs and made me play like buddy emmons!

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 27 Feb 2008 4:16 am

Well.....2 out of 5 ain't bad

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 27 Feb 2008 4:48 am

You might want to take a drive to Baldwinville MA and let Tommy Cass see what he could do to improve on the mechanics.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 27 Feb 2008 6:25 am

Scott,I have the first Desert Rose D-10 8+5 and mine sounds like a ZB without the mechanical nightmares,plays like WOW!

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 27 Feb 2008 11:16 am

If you want the cake and eat it too then you would definately be happy with a Franklin. that is if you can find one for sale. I don't know if Paul is still making them but I know he has been back logged for quite sometime. I was going to wait the 2 1/2 years to get one, but by luck I found a used one instead. I think it was sheer luck that I got mine like I did but I will tell you I payed top dollar for it used.
But it's worth it to me as I have sought after one for about 5 years.
When I got my Franklin. It was an immediate love affair. It just seems to suit me more than any guitar. I tried a new Milleniam and it was smooth as butter and tone was good although dark in my opinion (probrably just the pick up) but it doesn't have the rock solid stops like the Franklins do. Also, The Franklin changer I believe has got a more mechanical advantage. Good for multiple pulls. To me the playability is equally as smooth as a Mullen or the like, but those hard stops is what I like. It's just a beutiful, rugged, musical mechanical masterpiece. You can tell Paul Sr takes time to ensure every guitar is top quality. And I believe he has stuck to pretty much the same specs since he started building them. Not a whole lot of change. He has stuck to what he knows works.

It is definately a high end guitar and is sought after by people all over the world. I feel very fortunate to have one. Although tone is a matter of preference, I believe they have the cleanest tone of any guitar and good sustain as well. They have been rumored to produce no overtones but I don't think that's entirely true. I think that they have been built to prevent a lot of the unwanted overtones but still have enough overtone value to make the tone to sound good. And only Paul himself and few others probrably know the secret to achieving that. String separation by both definitions is great and it just seemed to fit my hands just right. I can't explain it, you just have to sit behind one. I also like the BL 710 pickups which is what they come with stock.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Feb 2008 2:27 pm

I never have a problem getting a good tone out of any guitar, or getting a tone that I like! Of course, I'm rather blessed 'cause I'm not stuck in that "there's only one tone, and everything else sucks" frame of mind.

(Well, you asked me, didn't you?)

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 27 Feb 2008 2:49 pm

To answer your question, Yes. The first time that I sat down to a big body, Sho~Bud I felt at home. I had the same experience with a D-10 push pull. Both are 1974 guitars. I still have both of those guitars...

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 27 Feb 2008 3:54 pm

I Have Heard The good and the bad about PPs . Zums MSAs Carters ZBs Etc etc . But I Have Never Heard A Bad word about a Franklin Never Had Or Played One Maybe Someday I Will Have One.Randy

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 27 Feb 2008 4:26 pm

Zbs are challenging to work on but once they're dialed in and locked down they are rock solid and comfortable.

DZ

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 27 Feb 2008 5:49 pm

There are many good steels on the market these days.
And there is probably a nickles worth of difference between them all. So it's a matter of what looks good to you and sounds. You should not have to sacrifice mechanics for tone or visa versa. The older guitars came with different problems, Weight and material to name some. Any one who has played an old PP would remember the tension on the pedals and levers. Things improved when spring tensions were relieved. I suspect the ZB could be adjusted to a more playable condition with a few mods and then you would not have to suffer the wrath of your other half with the notion of a new guitar. If you don't mind parting with it for a while there are some good fix it guys on the forum.
I have had my zum since 1984. Still plays and sounds great. I've posted a youtube on the web index.
It all comes down to what you like and hear. Not how old the guitar is. New vs. older is the question of the day.

JD

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 27 Feb 2008 6:33 pm

That's true Jack. Besides just about any guitar in the right hands will sound good whether it's new or old, or a ZB, Zum, ShoBud, Emmons, Carter, MSA, etc......

It's really personal preference!

I prefer vintage tones for myself but use a modern hassle free guitar for certain situations.

dz

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 27 Feb 2008 7:46 pm

I have to agree with Donny Hinson. As long as my twin has a treble, mid and bass, controls, I'll never have any problem with tone, nor with a sound I don't like.

I've stuck with the same steel since around 1968 and can't be more satisfied. But then too, I feel the same way about my wife, while many others change them pretty regularly. So again, it's all in the beholder's taste I'd say..

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 27 Feb 2008 8:15 pm

It's not all in the hands! I have one modern, excellently-crafted, smooth-playing steel (I won't name it!) that sounds thin and won't sustain in the upper register, no matter what I do with my hands, or my amp, and five steels that I don't have that problem with at all. Same hands on all six.

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 27 Feb 2008 8:37 pm

I Get a Great tone On my 1972 PP . Only after Letting Rick Price Set up The Bottom Of The Guitar. If They Are Adjusted Properly You Will Get A Great Tone.I Use a FET Evans.Have Used a Twin A FSK Webb And Always Can Get a Great tone. Randy.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 27 Feb 2008 8:43 pm

Brint, just for kicks, have you thought about measuring the distance from the center of the fingers, out to the pickup center and see how close to being equal in distance they are from one another. I truly believe that's why some don't sustain as well as others, but I can't be certain at this time, until I get mine back together. It might answer a major question as to possibly why some don't seem to sustain as well as others do

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 27 Feb 2008 8:47 pm

Right, it not in the hands but you need them to get the tone out of the guitar and amp.

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Tone vs. Playability.....always a compromise?

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