MSA Classic Aerobics

[Rich Cottle]

Playing an old MSA classic is like going to a Steel Guitar aerobics class, meaning it’s a real workout especially the lowering of the strings, its because the springs that hold the fingers back are
twice as thick as the steel guitars of today,

I guess as time has gone by manufactures have found that you don’t need the big springs to hold back the fingers and of course the design of the old MSA is a little immature, they were just figuring it out, anyhow I have had this old MSA classic S-12 universal for twenty five years and until I bought my ZUMSTEEL in 1997 I never new how easy a steel guitar could play

I have been thinking of this for a long time and I finally did it,I just simply changed the springs to ¼ X 1 7/8 X .35 and man this has solved the problem
it plays like my ZUMSTEEL, it doesn’t sound like it, but it is sure a lot easer to play

You also have to cut some of the springs a little shorter to account for the not having the adjusting
screws on the ends like most of the newer steel guitars of today, you simply take a pair of dikes
And crimp about say two loops, bend,and cut off the excess and make a new loop, make sure you do the
screw side that way you end up with the loop side that goes into the fingers all the same
cause you can always straighten the screw side and make it fit,

I hope all you old MSA Classic pedal steel guitar players can benefit from this find of the century
and everybody can now play their MSA classics with ease, I also tune to a D9th/A6th and now I don’t break as many strings and it gives it a real nice deep sound and the pedals are easier to press down.

Rich Cottle

[David LeBlanc]

Hey Rich, I just re-rodded my s12 (it was a mess) and now the travel in the pedals dosen`t feel right,and I can`t tune the C pedal at all.I put a franklin pedal on pedal 4 and it is "HARD" to push. I used the chart they have for the carter s10,but mabe I should have used different holes on the bellcranks. Any ideas?

[David LeBlanc]

Also I notice on the picture that some of the spings are longer then the others. Was that for a reason,or just hard to mesure the springs?

[Rich Cottle]

MSA guitars are a thing of the past and they have a lot of querks, it sounds like the pull rod is getting hung up , I too have had this problem , the best thing to do before you take any action is find the problem , why is the pedal getting hung up,

The pull rod plate holes are real close togather and sometimes the long spacer rods that go on before the tuning nut get hung up on the opposite plate, is what I do to all of my MSA projects is I sand down the Spacer rods, the end that touchs the plate to somewhat of a point and that way they dont get hung up on the other plate,

Another problem is on the C pedal which pulls the 4th and 5th strings a whole step, I have noticed that sometimes the 5th string hits the changer shaft brass support and the pedal doesn't go as far as it should, you have to custome file down the brass support so this doesn't hit anymore

As for the springs being larger and smaller, this is because if you look on a new guitar you'll notice that its exactly the same, some of the springs are adjusted shorter than the others , thats because some strings have to be pulled back tighter than others,

With the MSA you don't have adjusting screws, all you have is screws that anchore the springs on the one end, so you simply cut the springs down on one end to make the adjustment and it does the same thing as the adjusting screws do

Rich Cottle

[David LeBlanc]

Thanks Rich for the information.I have to take another look at the bottom of the guitar first before taking action. Gonna look for some of those springs also for my next project. Thanks again.

[Rich Cottle]

Yea some people have been wondering where to get springs, I get my springs from a local one of a kind hardware store, on the previous picture the name isn't quite readable, maby this will help ,here is the package name where I got the ones that I use Rich Cottle

[Steve English]

David,
I would recomend that you find yourself a real tech to help you with your setup.
With all due respect, Mr. Cottle's observations and opinions might be severly off-base.

[Darvin Willhoite]

Rick makes perfect sense to me, I just finished one MSA Classic restoration, and I'm in the middle of another. One other thing I had to do was, in order to raise the first string a full step, I had to cut out a little of the changer slot in the body, to allow the finger to move enough. This one had me scratching my head until I looked in there closely with a flashlight and saw what was happening. It works like a champ now.

I also had problems with the spacers catching the next finger, I tapered the ends of them the way Rich suggested. I also polished all of mine to reduce friction should they drag on the hole through the end plate.

[Rich Cottle]

This MSA guitar is my practice guitar and I never take it out so its not in the best of looks but it works fantastic,

It was one of the first guitars that I did when I first started and back then I just cut out the holes with a hack saw blade, I bought a tool that holds the blade and it sticks out of the front of the tool

Now days I take the guitars completly apart and cut them out with my milling machine, I've come a long ways from a hack saw blade to a milling machine

Tom Bradshaw is the guy that told me about this and it works like a charm, MSA's are the only guitars that have this goofie idea of holes on the end plate

when you cut out the holes you dont have that rubb a dubb dubb anymore from the pull rod end spacers

Rich Cottle

[David LeBlanc]

Thanks guys. "ALL of you were right. I had to re-rodd some more to get it .Everything is in tune now. A couple of little bugs remain-A pedal(5th string engages before 10th) I tried every possible rodding hole.C pedal(a little long & hard) Maybe it`s just me being too picky. Darvin , as I was re re-rodding I sanded and pollished the sleeves.Great idea.Next time I do a complete teardown will do everyone of them.Also will try the lighter springs and cut out the sleeve holes. Thanks again all you guy`s. PS You guy`s should write a book about fixing,improving and maintnence of old MSA`s.I`d buy one

[Ernie Pollock]

I would like to try those springs, but have not been able to locate any like that. I tried the web site but you have to have a part # & the picture does not show a part #. would it be on the back of your package?? Or if you know it, post it on here if you can. My old MSA works a little stiff on the E's to Eb levers & I would like to at least get two of them for that change.

Ernie

[Rich Cottle]

Yea Ernie heres the part number for those springs,

183-B

http://www.centuryspring.com

and they sell them for $1.72 each
and they have a $40.00 minium

so the guy says it would be
24 pieces at $1.72 = 41.28

But I think I'm gonna shop around and get a better price on account-of I like to buy wholesale in bigger quantitys, he says you can get them for 10% off for 100 but thats still too much, but if your just looking for 24 of them thats not bad , I guess

I'm gonna try googleing springs and look for a better price

Rich Cottle

[Ernie Pollock]

Thanks Rich, if you find a good price please put it on this post, I sure hate to have to buy 24 of those myself.

Ernie Pollock

[David LeBlanc]

I wonder what the shipping would be to CANADA? I could go half with you Ernie.

[David LeBlanc]

While were on the subject of MSA`s and improvement`s, does anyone know how to get the half stop on the 2nd string with the 9th sting?I don`t get it I`ve looked and tried everything but can`t get it right.Thanks in advance.

[David LeBlanc]

Well I went and bought some springs(one to try) and it was to weak. They were 2-1/8"x1/4 (54.0 x 6.4).Going to have to search a few more hardware stores. Was just wandering if you tried youre MSA with the E9th tunning RICH.Would a d9th pull harder or softer on the springs?

[Rich Cottle]

It looks like the old MSA spring measures, 5/16" diamiter x 2 1/8 long x .51 thousands thick,and for my setup I found that 1/4" x 1 7/8 x .35 works just fine,

You might try other combinations to see which one fits your needs, is how I found out this worked is, I had an old 3/8" x 1 1/4 x .33 thousands spring and I found on my E's to Eb it seemed to work fine, so I went for the 1/4" x 1 7/8 x .35 and I had to only cut down just a few of the them,

Try 5/16" x 1 7/8 x .40 thousands, that sounds like a winner, I have a whole drawer of new and used springs that I have save over the years and I was able to pick and choose from them

good luck Rich Cottle

[Jim Ragan]

Maybe someone will bring those Springs to the TSGA Jam and sell them as replacement springs.

[Rich Cottle]

Yea those springs are mighty nice folks and that Old Classic MSA of mine plays like a dream
Of course it helps if you tune down to D9/A6th

But if you don’t want to go through the relearning process, than you’re going to
Have to go to a thicker spring than mine, but thinner than what you’ve got

This picture shows you the end result of bending and reshaping the screw end of the spring, the secret is to use the dykes, needle nose pliers, and a vice to
Reshape and finish the end of the spring to the same shape- except smaller,

It can be done; it just takes- a lot of work

Rich Cottle

[David LeBlanc]

Well I found the exact same spring you`ve got and they won`t do. They`re to weak.The size after are to big.I did file the slots and bevel and wax and oil the tub`s .That sure helped.Still looking for the perfect spring

[Ernie Pollock]

This is a picture of the Layman triple raise idea, the one on the right is the Tom Bradshaw version. Both will give you a triple raise on your old MSA Classic 12 stringers to get you up to the E9th/B6th universal setup.

Ernie

[Jim Ragan]

Thanks Rich.
Well, I got mine to work.
I found Springs at ACE Hardware like you said that I would.
The Springs that I found were labled as Century #179.
The Springs cost $1.00 each.
They are .035 X .306 X 3.15 inches.
I cut one spring in half and made two springs.
I cut down the two springs to 31 coils each.
I replaced the two old springs on my 4&8 E Strings.
My E and F levers now work much easier and I did not have to change my tuning.
Total cost was $1.00 + tax.

[Rich Cottle]

Jim; I'm glad that you found the answer to the sixty four dallar question, it seems to me that the .35 thousands thickness is the clintcher,

You took a .35" thousands by 3/16" by 3 1/16" long spring for a dallar and turned it into two springs and got the E's to Eb's to per like a kitten,

Thats just what I've been saying, except I did em all, but doing just the E's is cool to, thanks for confirming that this works

Rich Cottle

[Rich Cottle]

I dont know what that other thing is Ernie, but I recognize the Tom Bradshaw Gadget

I've been using them for years, here's another take on them:

and get a load of the sidepull one's

gives you four pulls

Rich Cottle

[Rich Cottle]

Yea; Jim On that other message I ment 5/16" OD not 3/16" OD of your spring

Rich Cottle