Theory Question??

[Papa Joe Pollick]

What are the notes in a C2 chord? Is it a C chord with a D note added? I keep seeing this in BIAB and want to play the same chord on guitar when recording multi tracks.Thanks for any help you may offer. ..PJ

[David L. Donald]

Yes that would make sense.

As opposed to C9 which is
the Octave +D(2) stacked on top of 1 3 5 7

it sin't to common because the lose voicings
beat a lot but that octave distance
and the notes stacking helps find it
a better context.

[Michael Douchette]

Yes. TECHnically, a C9 has a flat seven in it, unless it's a C maj9. The C add 2 has a D note added. Fingering on a guitar would be, typically, 1st and 2nd string, third fret, 4th string, second fret, 5th string, third fret.

[P Gleespen]

What David and Michael say is right, as usual!

I'm curious though; in which song is that showing up? What's the chord progression? Knowing in what context you're seeing that chord could make it easier to "diagnose"...

[Andy Greatrix]

The way I hear it(and I may be wrong) is a C chord with a D substituting for the E. Example = C D G
or if you voice it D G C, it would be stacked 4ths, sort of.

That way, you could play a major or minor scale against it. It will have a suspended sound to it.

[David L. Donald]

It can be root movement passing to another higher chord

Like C/C, C/D, Em, Em/F, Em/G, G7

[Michael Douchette]

I'm curious though; in which song is that showing up?

Pretty much everything coming out of Nashburg for the last several years. I forget who really brought it to mainstream use here, but every rhythm player does it. It's kinda like the new "4 over 5," in the running for the "Chord of the Decade" around here...

[Andy Greatrix]

Frank Zappa used 2 chords a lot. A lady who played vibes for him explained the 2 substituting the 3 on a TV program.

[Clyde Mattocks]

Most of the session players I work with refer to it as an "open 2 chord", because it is unresolved to
the 3rd note. There is a tendency now to avoid that 3rd tone and maintain a certain "drone" in the rhythm section. Just guessing, but I surmise the more players playing 3rds, the more out of tune the band sounds.

[Michael Stover]

I've seen this written as 'sus2', but never as just '2.' I imagine they're talking about the same thing. Interesting...

[Papa Joe Pollick]

"I'm curious though; in which song is that showing up? What's the chord progression? Knowing in what context you're seeing that chord could make it easier to "diagnose"...
Patrick,It's almost always the first chord in a BIAB generated intro when using a jazz style.
Thanks Friends for your help.PJ..

[David Doggett]

On E9 you get this easily with no pedals and strings 4, 5, 6, and 7, or pretty much any combination of the open chord strings with 7 (and without 8). It's a beautiful chord to end on, then gently pick 8 to resolve it to the tonic. I agree it is usually called a sus 2. And it seems to sound better in open chords rather than close triads. Incidentally, on a uni with the D string removed, the E9 tuning technically becomes E2 or Esus2.

[Jim Peters]

Steely Dan depends on that chord a lot! They call it a MU chord, or something like that. It sounds ambiguous, and is dependent on the song and progression to really have a meaning. JP

edit to add:

http://jmdl.com/howard/steelydan/mu-major.html

[Webb Kline]

I've noticed that it can sometimes be conflicting and it is affected by whether the bass player walks up on the 3 or the b3. I ran into that on a song I recorded on in the studio recently. It was charted as a D2, but some were doing fills with the 3rd while the bass player was walking on the minor 3rd. It didn't show up until we had listened to the play back a couple of times and then it started driving the engineer nuts. I tried to explain to the other players what was happening, but they were a bit challenged in the chord theory department and it was like pulling teeth.

I've seen this happen before. Whipping Post by the Allman Bros is a good example of it. There is a major/minor conflict going on there that leaves you with an sense of uncertainty as to whether to play the major or minor 3rd in a fill and it is because they were not all approaching it the same way. It doesn't sound bad, but there is also no concrete resolution to it. Through most of that song, you can get away with the minor 3rd voicing, but at one point it distinctly sounds very major. Maybe they did it that way to be cool, just as they slipped in the 11/8 chorus to verse transition. Did they know what they were doing or was it a fluke? Who knows? If I'm not sure, I try to just stay away from the 3rd altogether, but it's not always that simple.

You don't have the problem with a 9th chord because the 9th chord utilizes either the 3rd or minor 3rd.

[P Gleespen]

Interesting stuff.
It seems almost like we're talking about two different chords, the add9 (or add2) which includes the 3rd and the "2" chord, which leaves OUT the third. ...or maybe I'm wrong. (Hey, it's been known to happen! )

Those are two pretty different sounds, depending on the context. The Zappa stuff with the "2" chords would sound all wrong if the 3rd was included.

You don't have the problem with a 9th chord because the 9th chord utilizes either the 3rd or minor 3rd.

Do you mean a #9th chord? That's got both the major 3rd and the minor 3rd (though it's really the #9). Otherwise, I don't get whatcha mean.

Edited to add:
Oh, yes I DO get what you mean! The 9th chord is EITHER a major 9th chord OR a minor 9th chord. Der. Maybe I should read more carefully!

[Webb Kline]

If both the b3 and 3rd notes are used, then you are correct, it would be a #9(the dissonance of playing the b3 and 3 simultaneously is what gives the #9 its unique voicing).

If only the b3rd is used, it would be called a minor 9th. A Major chord occurs when the major 7th is used in place of the b7, not because you are using the natural 3rd.

An add 9 doesn't utilize the b7, just adds a 9th to the triad.

A 2 designation, if properly notated, should not include the 3rd or b3rd, but replace them. Where we often get into trouble, as I stated in the last post, is when fills or bass lines utilize either the b3rd or 3rd. Sometimes it doesn't matter and sometimes it sticks out like a sore thumb, it depends on how it is used in context with the song.

But, chord theory is something that is seldom followed by letter of law. For example when comping big chords like, say, a C13th, on piano, I will just play the b7 (Bb) the 3rd (E) and the 13th (A). This gives me the dominant 7th voicing, the major voicing and the 13th voicing needed to capture the texture of a 13th chord. The root (C) can be left out because the bass line is covering for it. The 9th(D) is sometimes used, but is seldom necessary. The 11th(F), while both traditionally and technically correct when applied in the voicing of the 13th chord, is not typically used, although the augmented 11th (F#)is a fairly common jazz voicing.

Tricks like that are how we can comp those big chords in rapid fashion and everyone is impressed, but it's really just slight-of-hand stuff if you understand the basics of chord and scale theory.

[David L. Donald]

If I am using a minor I use the b9 this spreads the tension
Between a half step + octave from 1
and a whole step down from 3 both of which sound cool and beat less; if that b9 is up above.

A flat two was banned for centuries along with sodomy

And b9 coincidentally makes another minor third from the b7th
You get two minor intervals and that sounds bluesy and fat

[Bo Borland]

Are we talking about putting the 9 or 2 in the middle of the chord?

[David L. Donald]

A big hairy 2 right above 1,
and probably replacing 3 in all parts
including any walking bass.

[P Gleespen]

"I'm curious though; in which song is that showing up? What's the chord progression? Knowing in what context you're seeing that chord could make it easier to "diagnose"...
Patrick,It's almost always the first chord in a BIAB generated intro when using a jazz style.
Thanks Friends for your help.PJ..

I've never used BIAB, so I don't know much about it. That being said, it's strikes me as odd that the first chord in an intro would be as harmonically "neutral" as this.

A flat two was banned for centuries along with sodomy

[Michael Douchette]

A big hairy 2 right above 1, and probably replacing 3 in all parts
including any walking bass.

Just a style observation... if the song is incorporating the chord in question, it isn't very likely there's going to be a walking bass line of any kind, anyway; not impossible, just less odds of it.

[David L. Donald]

Maybe I should call it
Root movement upwards towards the 3rd

Or just call it a day!

[Jeff Valentine]

Stravinsky used that sound quite a bit. He called it the 3-9 trichord. The lack of tension in that sound makes it very useful over different bass notes. You could play (C-D-G) over C, C-, CMaj7, C7, F6 and many other chords. It's great to comp with to avoid forcing the soloist to conform to your form of minor. If you comp with a b7 over a minor chord then the soloist, assuming they're listening, will have to shy away from playing a harmonic or melodic minor sound. It's better to give them the option.

-Jeff

[David L. Donald]

Of course Stravinsky's music caused a total riot in Paris
when the Rites Of Spring was first played...