Recycling the Old Songs

[Alan Brookes]

I'm coming to the conclusion that most of the songs that will ever be written already have, and we're just pulling them out again and writing new words to old melodies. We're running out of melody permutations.

Willy Nelson's Song of Songs brings up the old similarity of:-
The Wild Side of Life
I'm Thinking Tonight of My Brown Eyes
The Great Speckled Bird

and, of course, the intentional
It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels

I previously brought up the similarity between
Confessing the Blues/Milk Cow Blues

and paradied it thus...
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets ... 0Blues.wma

I've noticed many similarities between
Move It On Over/Rock Around the Clock
Sunday Morning Coming Down/Canadian Pacific

There are thousands more.

Let's see how many you can come up with.....

[Richard Damron]

Alan - Bravo!

For those of us who know what is in the musical library (our longevity most likely a factor) it can be safely said that, whatever is WORTH writing, has already been written.

This sentiment has been ignored - not only here on the forum - but in conversations with self-proclaimed "song writers". It leads one to believe that these folks adhere to the notion that all of music suddenly materialized a mere ten or fifteen years ago. Thus they perpetuate the pap found in latter day compositions. In all fairness,though, some may innocently plagiarize a melody written some decades ago.

I have to blow this horn once again since I am very adamant in my thinking on this subject. Will attempt to add to your list.

Richard

[Edward Meisse]

Can I sleep in your barn tonite, mister?

And:
Can I sleep in your arms tonite, mister?

And:
Red River Valley.

[Edward Meisse]

God save the king (queen).
My country, tis of thee.

An old english drinking song whose name I don't know
The Star Spangled Banner

This sort of thing has been going on a long time. Julius Ceasar and Alexander the Great could probably tell us about more than a few, eh?

[Dan Tyack]

And who can ignore the similarities between 'the Dark Side of the Moon' and 'the Wizard of Oz'. Or Gilligan's Island theme and Stairway to Heaven.

[Robert Harper]

We need a mathematician to come up with the prossibilites of having completely original music on 5 string tuned exactly the same. I agree, try Aura Lee and Love Me Tender. I also saw an artcle on this. I have forgotten where, but some of the most cherished rock song are repeats fron centuries and decacdes past. makes me feel young well old wel rereun well one of them

[Jim Florence]

If you count sharps and flats, there are only 12 notes in a scale, then maybe three octaves ,,, That's it. You might rearrange them some, but the possibilities of wrighting something new are limited

A couple
When they ring those golden bells for you and me
I won't love you any more than you love me.

[Edward Meisse]

"Don't You Know," was written to a tune by Giacuomo Puccini. It was from the Opera, "La Boheme."

[Robert Harper]

I have been getting TAB from ERV. He tabs mostly in Eb to match the pianist. The song are remarkably similar. yet sound so dissimilar

[Joe Drivdahl]

As Jim pointed out, there are only 12 notes and many of those aren't used in a lot of scales. Those individual notes are combined to make chords. There are usually only 3 to 6 chords in many country songs so we've limited the variation of possible melodies even more.

I think the answer is linear music. Rather than coming back around to tonic (home) or rather than a repeating chord progression, how about music that starts at point A and progresses to point Z without ever repeating a chord? That'd be interesting. Probably suck muscically, but at least it would sound different.

Joe

[Edward Meisse]

I was taught that music needs to strike a delicate balnce between organization and novelty. If you were to play the 12 notes of the chromatic scale in order, I think there are 12x12x12x12x12x12x12x12x12x12x12x12 possibilities. That's quite a few. (Anybody know how to do a superscript?). I think the real limit here is in our heads and not in the possible combinations. And judging from the various musical systems that have developed in the world, I would judge that some of that limitation is genetic. Not just anything would be pleasing to the ear. If it was, there's be no difference between Buddy Emmons and a kid on a tinkertoy piano. We haven't even added in the rythmic possibilities.

[Robert Harper]

I have recently had the opportunity to listen to a sitar. A little goes a long way. There has been tousand and some people say millions of years of history. Ther must really be thousands of repeats. only a few have been menton here. I bet some were down right outright imitations written by unimimanagative, opportunist, quick, buck greedy profit seeking capitalist interested in there own well being narrcisticts, individualist refusing to march to the beat of the drum of the pack. I'm in there some where. Hey."I'm tired o this dirty old city" I wish I could afforrg to tell the boss "to take this old job and shove it and head out to the west coaat with the wind shield beat out the refrain freedom is just another word for noting left to loose and lucile waithin in a barrom in ome great imianged version of eutopia. Its a sad sad world when at times you admire the people lining homeless "on the dock of the bay" with "Time in a bottle" in airpots with water mellon winne and old dogs. I guess i'll be " in Ohamaha by dawn with " Carolina and Lind and WandA and Peggy Sue and a boy named Sue Always On My mind Like Angels flying too Close to the groun. I uess I shou stop loving her to day But loving her was easy. Good Night

[David Doggett]

Ed's right. We will never even come close to all the possibilities for the 8-note scale, much less the 12-note chromatic scale. Suppose you want a melody consisting of 12 bars of quarter notes, for a total of 48 notes. The possibilities using the 8-note scale would be 8 to the 48th power. That is about 2 followed by 43 zeros. Want to use the whole chromatic scale? That would be about 6 followed by 51 zeros. Those are what mathematicians call "immense numbers." They are not infinite, but they are so big that for all practical purposes they might as well be infinite. And for melody, it makes a difference what registry a note is in, so you have to add about half an octave on each end of the scale. You can cut the number of notes by using half-notes and whole-notes, but then you have to add all the time value possibilities to the mix. Likewise, you can require the melody to fit simple chord progressions, but then you have to add all the possible chord progressions to the mix. So, there is no need to worry that we will run out of melodies. We ain't even scratched the service yet.

[David Doggett]

Here's an interesting thread on another forum about the many songs based on the tune of Sittin' on Top of the World, by the Mississippi Sheiks (who may not have written the original): Sittin' on Top of the World

Some of the songs with a similar melody are:
Come on in My Kitchen, Robert Johnson
It Hurts me Too, Tampa Red and Elmore James
You Got to Move, Memphis Minnie and Fred McDowel.

[Tracy Sheehan]

As Jim pointed out, there are only 12 notes and many of those aren't used in a lot of scales. Those individual notes are combined to make chords. There are usually only 3 to 6 chords in many country songs so we've limited the variation of possible melodies even more.

I think the answer is linear music. Rather than coming back around to tonic (home) or rather than a repeating chord progression, how about music that starts at point A and progresses to point Z without ever repeating a chord? That'd be interesting. Probably suck muscically, but at least it would sound different.

Joe

Color my world does not repeat any chords.Tenderley,Misty.These are some of my fovorite songs to play.But music no longer sells.

[Richard Damron]

David -

The mathematician in you is commendable but I'd like to make an attempt at tempering your numbers just a bit. If we speak of melodies with lyrics, then it can be safely said that we are dealing with a vocal range of, perhaps, an octave and a half or something slightly greater as you pointed out. And yes, the possible combinations are staggering. However, were I to "compose" a tune which required outrageous vocal gymnastics - that is, jumping helter-skelter from one end of that spectrum to the other and to random points in between - would you actually listen to it? I think not. Our western music has undergone an evolutionary change over eons of time. We accept a genre of permutations while rejecting many others. John Cage, anyone? Future generations may, indeed, view Cage et.al. as the forefathers of their version of rock and roll but it is within the current context and recent memory of musical acceptability that we must focus our attention. The number of acceptable combinations is quite limited. Thus I stand by my belief that anything WORTH writing has already been written - within the context of which I speak. Twentieth century composers have, for all intents and purposes, "cherry-picked" those musical phrases which most satisfied our musical tastes and sensibilities thus leaving the dregs for those who would purport to be composers.

Yes - any number, when raised to a significant higher power, will be viewed as impressive and somewhat mind-boggling but the practicality of it is highly questionable. I choose to severely temper those theoretical numbers based upon my knowledge of the content within the musical library. Some justification may be derived from the notion that few, if any, modern day composers have even begun to approach the imaginative abilities of Porter, Rodgers and Hart, Carmichael, Hammerstein, Burke, Van Heusen, Gershwin and others who have penned some of the most beautiful songs ever put to script paper. Perhaps those who would be competent writers are also aware of that which has already been written and choose not to imitate or, even, plagiarize that which the accepted "greats" have already composed. Then again, perhaps the currently acceptable genres are severely inhibiting to those with imagination. I can't deal in conjecture but only what my knowledge and my mind's ear tells me.

Evolution, in music, and in some far, far distant time may alter my perspective drastically but, FOR NOW -

There ain't much left, Son. Really.

Respectfully

Richard

[Olaf van Roggen]

It's now or never and O sole Mio...

[Joe Miraglia]

Olaf, Yes from a old Italian operatic, O Sole Mio, "My Sun" Joe

[Joe Miraglia]

"Don't You Know," was written to a tune by Giacuomo Puccini. It was from the Opera, "La Boheme."

Ed Don't you know music was invented by the Italians. Joe

[Bent Romnes]

Did anybody mention:
My sweet Lord..Beatles
He's so fine...Jody Miller

[John Roche]

Twist and Shout = La bamba

[John Roche]

On the first LP Lloyd Green recorded ( Show me the way to the Circus )there are a number of tunes that are very much like a lot of country songs but with another name , crystal chandeliers for one , and there a old Irish song called Noreen Bawn that is note for note the same but yet another name on the LP...Kidnapping on Music Row ?

[John DeBoalt]

I can't believe you guys forgot to include Danny Boy, and Londondary Aire ( sic ) in your list of sound a likes. the other night I tried to play " Crazy " on my C6 neck, and made it sound like nothin you ain't never heard before. John

[John Roche]

Danny boy are the lyrics for the Londonderry Aire

[John McGlothlin]

If a steel guitarist these days were to record a CD of the hit songs of the decade he would only have to put 1 song on the CD because the only thing different in songs today is just the lyrics...song writers are too lazy to create a melody that stands out.