It's In your Hands

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 17 Dec 2007 4:12 pm

I have noticed that on nights were I'm unhappy about the tone I'm getting it's usually because I'm physically tense (hands, wrist, shoulder, etc.). If I just relax a little I notice a huge improvement in my tone. I've only recently become conscious of this and am really impressed by the difference I hear.

Gabriel

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 17 Dec 2007 10:37 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:Al T....You stated "surely everyone recognizes that different steel brands have their own "sound".

I've yet to see even "one" player who will come forward to attempt to prove they can consistently identify ANY single brand of prominently played pedal steel guitar when their back is turned, and other brands are also played.

Reece, I believe you have not met a player who has done such a test. Could I submit and pass such a test? No, I'm one of the only guys around here who can't tell the difference between solid state and tube amps -- when played under distortion levels. People keep telling me there's a "warm" feeling with tubes, and I think it's...well, it doesn't matter what I think.

That said, there are many people I respect (Kevin Hatton, for one) as having "musician ears" who can tell the difference between pedal steel brands, and while they might not always be right, I do believe they hear distinctions that are probabaly rather consistent.

I've long since given up the rather egotistical notion that just because I can't tell the difference between something like amps, it doesn't mean somebody else can't.

Let me ask your professional opinion here, Reece: Can you tell the difference between a Strat and a Tele?

If so, and only if so, why is it not conceivable that steel guitars brands/types, too, can have distinctive sounds? I by no means say this with authority, but I just can't imagine, as limited as good ears that I have, that brand steels couldn't have their own sound. Is it really that far-fetched?

And as we've learned in life and is cemented here in this forum, it really doesn't matter what I or you think, actually -- people who say they can hear a difference between steel brands will always trust their own ears, not yours or mine.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Dec 2007 5:51 am

Al T....Believe what you may.....however, at the old MSA we built a room for this purpose, and we even purchased other brands of guitars with which to make the comparisons. Never did one person get it right, and I can assure you, MANY accepted the opportunity.

Since that time I have continued the same test when time and instruments were available, and noone has yet identified an inherent distinction.

If you know someone who is convinced they can consistently make a distinction, they have had the opportunity to so state and have declined. Were they to do so, they should have the opportunity and be eager to demonstrate their exceptional ability.

In response to your question....although I have never tried, I seriously doubt I could tell the difference between a Strat and a Tele when following the same guidelines I suggest for a steel guitar comparison.

Of course it does not matter what you or I think, but it is a fact there are those who "think" their sound is brand dependant, and therefore their guitar has an inherent tone, which I contend has never been proven to be true.

Lastly the deffinition of egotistical has nothing to do with presenting an unproven premise.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 19 Dec 2007 6:58 am

Hi Reece,

First, my reference to egotistical (while I can now see my poor arrangement) had nothing to do with you -- my apologies. I'm purely speaking about myself and would never infer (on purpose) upon others.

That's really interesting about your test; it's hard to argue with what's close to a scientific method.

Let me ask a couple of questions just to clarify the results (because of some recent classes I've taken to teach, I'm interested -- just as much as you -- of disproving things to prove things).

When you did these tests (and it looks like you took on all challengers), who played the different guitars? Was it the challenger or one other single person? And I'm not trying to bait you here; the reason I'm asking is that, as mentioned in an earlier post, some guitarists feel they can make all brands sound the same because of their personal touch and tone, which, of course, would make it almost impossible to tell the difference between guitars. And I just realized if this was true, this would apply to whomever played the guitar -- the challenger or an innocent bystander.

And when you did these tests, did the challenger feel like they could hear a difference but couldn't pinpoint which was which, or did they all sound the same to them? Maybe I can answer this myself by assuming each challenger wouldn't dare think they all sounded the same, but guessed. If this is true, then we might not never know if they actually heard a difference or not.

As I've said before Reece, I'm not one to think I could tell the difference (but I don't really care, either) between guitars, and now I'm wondering if I could, myself, tell the difference between a Strat and a Tele, because I am convinced that the same player could make them sound similar; or yet using different pickup settings and using different e.q. could make them indistinguishable. I don't know. There really are just an incredible amount of variables that are hard to control in testing things via the scientific method.

I'm wondering, though, that if people want to believe they can hear a difference (even if we know it's impossible), why not let them?

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 19 Dec 2007 7:21 am

I have mentioned this before, but it's been a while. Randy Beavers did a CD on which he played his P/P Emmons on some songs and his Zum on others. He then asked the forum members if they could tell which ones he played what steel on. No one on this forum who tried to do it was right. I have contended and still do that it is in the player's hands and technique with all else being equal except the brand of steel. I think Randy's test verified that fact as it appeared that some experts believed that they could tell a P/P from all other brands. It didn't work on this test. I agree with Reece.

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 19 Dec 2007 8:21 am

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Dec 2007 8:48 am

Al T....Thank you for your dignified response.

I'm happy to respond to your question and I honestly don't feel you are "baiting me". You appear to be one who has a sincere interest in pursuing the truth, same as I.

When taking the tests, I or any other steel player present would play the guitars while a listener had his back turned and had pen and paper with which to list the name of the guitar in the order in which they were played. If the one taking the test was accompanied by another steel player, they were invited to be the player as well.

There were times when the listener would make a good guess, then at times after again going through the motion of sounding as though we were moving guitars around, we would play the same guitar and they would list the name of a different brand of guitar. NEVER was anyone capable of defining any inherent characteristic between guitars, which was a clear indication to all present that an inherent sound/tone for any specific brand of guitar did not exist.

You're of course right in that variables do indeed exist, and in my opinion, the hands of the player is the greatest variable. However, the fact remains, noone has ever been able to consistently distinguish an inherent sound to my knowledge.

There's nothing wrong with people believing what they want to believe, and I'm not trying to change anyones mind about anything, I'm simply saying the premise which has been accepted thoughout many years that a specific guitar has a tone advantage has never been proven, and it could be in the best interest of all concerned were the truth to be known or at least considered.

I don't believe a "tone entitlement" comes with a specific brand of guitar, and those who believe differently might change their mind were they to accept the challenge.

Doug R....Thank you for mentioning the previous thread of which I was not aware.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Dec 2007 9:06 am

No-one has reacted to my Albert Lee story, yet I feel that it's a perfect example of what's being discussed.

We're talking about a Fender Telecaster being compared with a Gibson Les Paul, for goodness sake! ....and when he and I were discussing it as we listened, we were not trying to prove any point, we simply remarked on our surprising failure to differentiate between two totally disparate brands. Rather like a Sho-Bud vs. a push-pull, wouldn't you say?

Reece: I remember reading or hearing about that test of yours, and I also remember Randy's challenge. The results didn't surprise me at all.

RR

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Dec 2007 9:21 am

Roger R....I apologize for not responding to your story about Albert Lee. I felt it to be an accurate account and assessment which further validated my conclusions.

Forgive me, but I don't remember Randy's challenge, but if you would refresh my memory it would be appreciated.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Dec 2007 9:30 am

Sorry, Reece - I phrased that rather badly. It wasn't a real challenge, as such, but check Doug Rolfe's recent post on this very thread.

Randy Beavers had recorded tracks with two different steels, yet no-one on the Forum was able to accurately assess which track featured which guitar.

Interesting, but not surprising.

RR

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Dec 2007 9:38 am

Roger R....Thank you for the courtesy of your response and explanation. It appears you and I agree.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 19 Dec 2007 11:34 am

Whoops, double post.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 19 Dec 2007 11:39 am

Roger, a nit-pick: I do wonder, did Albert play the Tele and the Les Paul through the same amp, with the same settings, and were the EQ settings on his guitar track(s) on the recording/mixing console identical for all songs? If any or all of those things were not the case, it would somewhat diminish the value of this anecdotal evidence with regard to the questions being discussed.

Likewise with regard to the Randy Beavers CD.

Reece's tests sound as though they eliminated these variables, however, and appear to have a good amount of validity. I particularly like the "faked guitar change" aspect. Reece, how many individuals would you say submitted to the test?

I must say, I own, and have owned for many years, Teles, Strats, and Gibsons, and while I consider it possible, but very far from certain, that I could distinguish between one of my Teles and one of my Strats in a blindfold test, I feel much more confident I could distinguish either Fender from a humbucker-equipped Les Paul, as long as all else in the signal chain was identical. Maybe not, though--who knows?

But there's a lot more difference between a Tele or Strat and a Les Paul, with regard to construction, dimensions, materials, and electronics than there is between pedal steels.

As I said before, when I play my different steels, I myself experience that I adjust my playing touch (largely unconsciously), not my amp settings, and achieve very similar sounds on the different guitars. But that seems to show that there is some difference between them, though relatively subtle--that's why I adjust my technique! Probably one must be playing the instrument and interacting with its characteristics to notice the difference, such as it is.

Oh, and Roger, I think you may have misread the Jeff Newman piece posted about earlier--or else I did. It seems to me his point of view and Reece's are very much in agreement.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Dec 2007 12:18 pm

Brint,

As far as I can recall, nothing was changed. He was in his MusicMan amp. period back then - as was I! He would have gone from guitar to echo-unit to amp, and just switched his guitar. I can't swear that he didn't tweak something a little bit, but this wasn't any state-of-the-art studio, more of a hole-in-the-wall - we were pretty much left to our own devices.

Bear in mind that it was the producer, not Albert, who wanted the two guitars there - he had some nostalgic notion that he'd like to record Al on the guitar that he used to be associated with in the very early 1960s (this session was sometime in the '80s). I got the feeling that, while he was happy to comply, Albert didn't care one way or the other - he just went along with it. There were no 'variables' so, even though it wasn't meant to be any sort of 'test', it's a valid case-in-point, and pertinent to our discussion.

Interestingly, Albert once bought a Gibson Super 400 from me - he played it during his time with Chris Farlowe and the Thunderbirds (mid to late '60s) and that was another example of a vastly different guitar being manipulated by the player to produce the tone HE wanted. I couldn't hear any appreciable difference between the Super 400 (an 18" carved top & bottom arch-top) with either the Les Paul Black Beauty or the Tele.

I feel the same way about our perceived notions of how our guitars sound. I play a G&L Asat Classic for electric guitar jobs, but I fool around at home a lot on my Gibson ES-355. While I think I'm getting this lovely psuedo-jazz tone on the Gibson, in reality my hands are almost unconsciously making adjustments, because I play in a certain way. I think that our eyes deceive us. The only difference in that case is that the Gibson has heavier strings, so there's less oscillation when I pick them.

It sounds as though we agree regarding our different steels. That's it! We make unconscious adjustments until they sound as we like them to. Small wonder that a 'third party' can't identify the instruments.

Jeff Newman:

Sorry, but I'm going to have to review what I said about that - I can't remember!!! (It WAS three pages ago!)

Best,

RR

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Dec 2007 2:43 pm

Brint...

I can't find any reference to Jeff Newman here, and I can't see where I've taken issue with anything he's said - what am I missing?

I just received my first Medicare Card - it's entirely possible that a certain amount of fogginess has crept in, so please explain....

RR

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 19 Dec 2007 3:08 pm

Roger, maybe I don't understand your post! It's around the middle of page 2. Don Brown's post concludes with a link to a Jeff Newman article, Carl Williams posts "That's a wrap", and your post follows:

Strange, that. I'd say Mr Anderson is one of the very best, yet he doesn't agree. My thoughts happen to run along similar lines to his.

Maybe this isn't a 'wrap' after all.....

"Doesn't agree" with whom?

Apologies if I didn't get what your post referred to.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Dec 2007 3:45 pm

I see now, Brint - thank you.

I went to that link, but didn't scroll all the way down at first which I should have done, and I jumped in rather too quickly! I've now read the whole page.

I don't think Jeff was addressing quite the same point. He was discussing the hack player's conviction that their gear isn't quite good enough, and that an upgrade is all they need. It's amusingly written and, of course, it's right on the button.

I'm vaguely irritated when someone quotes a 'master', then says - 'Well - that's it, then; so-and-so has spoken...', so I played the same card, as it were, and countered by quoting Maurice. Reece hasn't contradicted Jeff, because we're discussing something else - can one identify a brand of instrument purely aurally?

It was the 'It's a wrap!' that wound me up, as though the rest of us needn't discuss this any further, as we've got nothing valid to add. It smacks of sycophancy - something that abounds on this Forum.

I'm guilty, too - I admit to being pleased that my views on the subject happen to parallel Reece's, whereas that shouldn't be, and really isn't, of any consequence.

RR

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 19 Dec 2007 5:10 pm

but when you listen those players they sound the same on any instrument they play.John Hughey sounded just as magical on a Zum as he did on an Emmons.

That's because he sounded like John Hughey - not because he sounded the same on each guitar, which he didn't.

So many players mistake style for tone.

A great player will sound great on just about any instrument, but they won't project the same tonal qualities. The overtones and frequency response will vary due to the inherent tone of the instrument, and "hands" don't change that - they can tweak it a bit, but change it completely.

Whether steel guitar or six-string, style is in the hands...and with it *some* manipulation of tone (by picking dynamics, distance from the bridge, etc) - but tone is in the rig (the entire guitar/cables/effects/amp assembly, with the guitar's inherent tone usually the primary factor).

Some guitars, by design, have a more distinctive tone than others, but the fact is they don't all *sound* the same when played by the same guy...no matter who the guy is.

although I have never tried, I seriously doubt I could tell the difference between a Strat and a Tele when following the same guidelines I suggest for a steel guitar comparison.

No wonder you feel the way you do then. I don't know many experienced guitar players who *can't* tell the difference between a Tele and Strat in a blind test ( and yes, we HAVE done them...and cable tests as well). Heck, my 13 year old son, who plays with a pretty distorted tone, recognizes the tonal difference between his Ibanez Iceman and Epiphone SG. He can also tell the difference between my GFI and Fenders when I'm playing...from upstairs.

I guess he's just a medium of some sort, eh Reece?

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 19 Dec 2007 8:09 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:There's nothing wrong with people believing what they want to believe, and I'm not trying to change anyones mind about anything, I'm simply saying the premise which has been accepted thoughout many years that a specific guitar has a tone advantage has never been proven, and it could be in the best interest of all concerned were the truth to be known or at least considered.

I don't believe a "tone entitlement" comes with a specific brand of guitar, and those who believe differently might change their mind were they to accept the challenge.

I'm with you, Reece.

Jim: I'm actually laughing right now, because maybe you and your son really have good ears. I say this, because I was recording all day today, and I wanted to get some crunchy guitar down on a track. I plugged a hollow body electric guitar into an old Magnatone, then plugged in my Gibson SG -- I couldn't tell a difference!

Oh, well. Believe me, though, when I say I believe you, your son, and whoever else says they can, can hear the difference between instruments. I do believe Reece, too, when he says that all who took up his challenge failed. This can't be discounted, well, at least to me.

As for the Albert Lee and Randy Beavers bits, when you get a guitar into a GOOD mix, I think trying to tell the difference would be extremely difficult, especially if the player has that "sound" he's looking for and dials it in with his amp, no matter what instrument he's playing.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Dec 2007 8:26 pm

Jim S....Your frustration is apparent. Hopefully you will relax and enjoy a joyous holiday season with your family.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 19 Dec 2007 9:04 pm

lmao...

Frustration? Hardly. Not when I'm laughing this hard.

Hope you enjoy the holidays as well. No hard feelings, we know we disagree completely about this subject.

But still...not being able to tell the difference between a Tele and a Strat? Maybe if you *try* to find the common tones, sure. But generally....not a chance any experienced players I know would be fooled if you just played each one at 3 switch positions and touched no other control.

Yikes.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 19 Dec 2007 10:37 pm

Reece, you are proposing that you can make all steel guitars sound the same with the same player through hand technique which I don't believe is true. Different steels and equipment result in different tones given the same player. Different brands of guitars sound different in the same hands. Alot of the modern steel guitars do sound the same though from what I hear as alot of them have similar parts or similar construction.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Dec 2007 6:09 am

Al & Reece -

I think you both probably have much better ears than either of you realize. In Al's case, there may just be a case of limited hearing frequency respose, but I doubt it. I think you would notice differences if you really concentrated on it. In Reece's case, I simply think he's convinced himself of what is true (or has been saying it so long)so that he will no longer admit differences.

Guys, I will simply direct you to the Line 6 Variax guitar line. The original Variax 500 is a good example, with patches emulating a '68 Tele, '59 Strat, '58 Les Paul, '59 Gretsch 6120 and '57 ES-175 among many other electric and a small selection of acoustic instruments. Now, I would not claim the patches are pefect, but they do a very good job of emulating the sounds of many classic instruments (other models cover bass and acoustic ground, plus other electrics...and you can design your own electric sound via "construction" of a guitar on the computer and downloading the resulting tones to the guitar).

Note they don't have a "Joe Pass" patch, nor a "James Burton"; no "Eric Clapton" nor "Ed King" - the different tones are based on different guitars because they sound different.

If you two sat with one of these 6-strings and flipped through a half-dozen of the electric guitar settings (even adjusting the volume and tone controls to try to "trick" it) I just have this little feeling you *might* have a revelation of sorts...

Actually, I guarantee Al would hear the difference. Whether Reece could would be a matter of choice and a willingness to have an open mind.

FWIW I have a Variax 500 with an added b-string bender, and it's wild having a "Stringbender" Super 400, Coral Electric sitar, Rick 360-12, etc.

Oh - and Reece, if you can take one, play every guitar patch and make them sound the same using your hands, call Guitar Player magazine, because I guarantee they will have you on the cover of the next available edition.

Guitars have tone, and players have style. Whether you believe that or not is simply a matter of choice. But the facts do not change based on your choice.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Dec 2007 6:49 am

Kevin H....What I'm saying is....From my experience I have found that no matter who plays different guitars, the one who is not able to see the guitars being played and is attempting to attach an inherent sound/tone relative to any specific brand, will not be able to do so. The technique or proficiency level of the player has nothing to do with that which I'm inferring.

There's nothing wrong with being a skeptic, and I must admit I too was once a skeptic many years ago. I sincerely hope you and other skeptics someday have the time and inclination to conduct sound/tone evaluations.

Of course theres a chance it can be proven that I'm wrong, all I'm saying is, no one has ever been able to do it to my knowledge, and even IF someone could do it, they would indeed be one of many thousands.

Brint H....We conducted the comparison tests over a period of about three years. That would have been from about 1980 until 83. The test results and names of those who took the tests have long since been discarded. I can't tell you how many took the test, however I can assure you the number was significant.

Jim S....Of course theres no hard feelings, and a laugh is always good for the spirit. Happy holidays to you and yours and we'll continue next year I'm sure. Who knows, maybe someday we'll agree on something.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 20 Dec 2007 1:46 pm

The thing I don't get is this:

If all these steel guitars really do sound the same and it's all in the hands, then why would anyone feel that "Brand X" is the best steel?

What I mean is, what about all the guys who swear by push/pulls? What about the people who swear AT them?

Why are there so many ZB fanatics? Is there a segment of the steel community that is particularly masochistic when it comes to undercarriage adjustment?

What about Sho-Buds? If it's not the sound, then what? Do ShoBud players get a secret thrill knowing that their pot-metal knee lever could go at anytime?

I have a Fessenden and a Sho-Bud professional. They sound VASTLY different from one another.

If it's really all in the hands, why in the world would someone spend 5000 on a carbon-fiber guitar when they could get a "normal" one for considerably less?

Why is there a giant waiting list for a Zum?

Now, don't get me wrong, I know for sure that tone IS in the hands. I'm just saying that it's ALSO in the instrument.